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  #1  
Old 12-29-2005, 08:12 AM
Jonny1723 Jonny1723 is offline
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Default Flopping Middle Pair - What to do ???

Id appreciate your opinions on every street please, but in particular the river I struggle to know when to raise for value on the river.

This is probably due to my brain remembering the vast amount of times Ill bet the river to be raised by someone along for the ride, and have to make the crying call.

------------------------------------------------------------

The only read I have is that MP3 is very passive and only raises when he has a made hand, but he will call to the river with almost anything.

Bet365 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 Folds, Hero Raises, 1 Fold, MP3 Calls, 2 Folds, SB Calls, BB Calls

<font color="green"> Pretty standard I would have thought.</font>

Flop: (16 SB) J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB Checked, BB Checked, Hero Bets, MP3 Called, SB Folds, BB Raised, Hero Called, MP3 Called.

<font color="green"> This happens often, and its something Im not really sure about I flop middle pair with a good kicker.

I usually choose to bet out to give me an idea of where Im at Is this the correct or should I generally check it ? I tend to feel that by betting out, it will put those who may have top pair weak kicker on the defensive. Is this nave at these limits ?

As I was C/R by the BB here, I wondered what he might have, but without any reads thought Top Pair most likely.

Should I have folded here without question ?</font>

Turn: (14 BB) T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB Bet, Hero Called, MP3 Called.

<font color="green"> Looking back at this hand, I feel I made a big mistake calling here. However, I can only assume I looked at the pot size and decided to call for one bet. (I knew with MP3 being so passive, there was no chance of a raise). </font>

River: (17 BB) A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB Checked, Hero ?

<font color="green"> This is a good and bad card for me as it gives me top two pair, but also puts 4 to the straight. With BB checking I thought my Top Pair read was good. However, with MP3 still to act and calling this far I had a feeling he may have a K, and would therefore bet out.

What is your action here Check behind / Raise ? And why ?</font>

Final Pot: ?? BB

Results = I will post later.

J.
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  #2  
Old 12-29-2005, 08:41 AM
k000k k000k is offline
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Default Re: Flopping Middle Pair - What to do ???

I think I'd check it, there's 2 players in. He's might be going for another C/R, you raised PF, so you likely have an A, K, Q, you have something with that board. If he has a K, the worst he can do is chop, and a C/R sets up the player in between you two to suck an extra bet out of him. If he is trying that, you save a couple bets.. He might have Q8 or something, but after you raise PF, with THAT board, he probably won't call you with a weak holding.

I think if you bet, you'll get raised by MP3 or C/R'ed by BB more often than he calls and you take it down.
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Old 12-29-2005, 08:50 AM
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Default Re: Flopping Middle Pair - What to do ???

I don't know about open raising with ajo, I only do it from later position.

Flop: Bet out, you raised pre-flop and hit part of the flop. C/R by BB could be top pair or two pair, with no reads it's unpossible to know if he is c/r a draw.

Turn: You might try pushing back at the BB and raising here. Your hand has improved with the stright draw and not improved any flush draws.

River: You have a really good hand that is vulnerable, if you bet and they come along (what happened to mp3? I'll assume he is still there on the river) you can get two more BB. If you check behind and mp3 wakes up and leads out, BB calls and you call you can still get two more BB. If you check, mp3 bets and BB raises I think you can let it go, one of them has a K.

I'd probaby bet the river, get raised by BB, call, lose and remember the check behind play...
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:24 AM
graarrg graarrg is offline
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Default Re: Flopping Middle Pair - What to do ???

GRUNCH ATTEMPT:

Flop: good bet out, I would do the same 4-way. Calling the CR is fine.

Turn: Sigh, this pot is so big it makes me cry to fold AND to stay. It would depend on my read of BB I guess.

River: Definite check. not only do you have a potential checkraiser ahead of you, you have a passive player who has called down to this point and who cold called two before the flop.

BB looks like he had J3, or maybe even 33, and MP3 either KJ, KT, or potentially a Q-rag. What else would he cold-call with? then again, he might cold-call with anything. Caught in between someone pumping the flop and the possibility of the king out there, I'd check the river. And check/call by instinct.
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Old 12-29-2005, 09:35 AM
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Default Re: Flopping Middle Pair - What to do ???

Your play looks pretty solid to me. On the turn, I'm 55% call/45% fold. With no reads, I probably call here.

On the riv, pretty easy check/call 1. If MP3 bets &amp; BB raises, you can easily let it go.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2005, 09:57 AM
sean c sean c is offline
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Default Re: Flopping Middle Pair - What to do ???

Hi Jonny your pot size is goofed up. The flop should be 8sb, the turn should be 7bb and the river 10bb. I think the turn and the river are the only questionable streets here. On the turn getting 8:1 i would probably peel here. It looks like MP3 is on a flush draw but even so you still could have as many as 6 outs here if behind. The river is tough and i am leaning towards a bet but i would have a hard time folding to a raise here so maybe this is wrong.
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  #7  
Old 12-29-2005, 11:31 AM
Jonny1723 Jonny1723 is offline
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Default Re: Flopping Middle Pair - What to do ???

Thanks for all the replies.

as it happens MP3 checked behind.

BB showed QT of Clubs
MP3 showed A9 of Spades
Hero took down the pot with his 2 pair.

I feel I was extremely lucky on this hand, but I guess everyone deserves a bit of luck now and then.

Cheers
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Old 12-29-2005, 11:45 AM
k000k k000k is offline
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Default Re: Flopping Middle Pair - What to do ???

I don't know about open raising with ajo, I only do it from later position.

Possibly against popular opinion, I raise AJo UTG in 10h games almost every time.. Thin the herd..

BB looks like he had J3, or maybe even 33, and MP3 either KJ, KT, or potentially a Q-rag. What else would he cold-call with?

BB only called 1 sb, and was getting 7:1 to do it. He could have any suited garbage, any ace, well pretty much anything.. A lot of players feel they're already 1/2 way in, calling one more isn't a mistake, or a very small one if it is. I'd be suprised to see a set or a 2-pair from him. What I'm expecting to see in order of likliness is:

a K or TP/2ndPGK (about equally likely imo)
a worse 2pair
a bluff
a set
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  #9  
Old 12-29-2005, 02:02 PM
Catsailor Catsailor is offline
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Default Re: Flopping Middle Pair - What to do ???

Grunch:
If the table is loose I think the preflop raise is fine. Your bet count is wrong. 8sb preflop
Flop I count outs as 2o J, 1 1/2o A, 1o bdst dr. 4 1/2 o total. Getting 4 1/2 to 1, I also bet out especially after your preflop raise. Maybe someone close to you raises and we drive some out. Even paying 2sb here, we're covering our 9 to 2 odds. There are 14sb after flop action. Read SSHE about protecting your hand. Sometimes c/r will do it depending on where villians aggresion is likely. I think bb c/r could be any pair, st. dr, or fl dr.
Turn; I count your outs 3o K(no Ks),2o J, 1o A. 6outs could be too generous with 3 str cards and 2 fl cards. 6o on turn 6.7 to 1 and it's 8 bb to us. I call and hope mp doesn't wake up and raise. If he did and bb called, I call. If he did and bb 3b, I fold.
River; now it's 10bb. With bb ck, I think he either missed or made and going for c/r. Also mp might have made his str draw, so I ck behind and call a raise. You have aces up. You could still be ahead. Any K makes str. so don't bet out. Just my opinion. Comments appreciated.
Cat
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  #10  
Old 12-29-2005, 03:09 PM
Gammonster Gammonster is offline
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Default Re: Flopping Middle Pair - What to do ???

1. Unless the game was different than what I normally play in, I'd tend to raise w/ AJo in your position

2. I'm learning here as well, so if anyone can offer insight to this line of reasoning, please do so, but I'd check.
a. There are 4 other people, in the pot, and I'm guessing someone might have a Q.
b. However, since there is a flush draw, and you mentioned the habits of MP3, there is more incentive to bet out, for you are more likely to be called with a second best hand.
c. But if you check, and face a raise, and a reraise, I think you can fold.
d. Depending on who raises, if there is only one raise, you could check-raise and punish those draws.
e. If there is a free card, you are in a much better position to know that your jacks are good, and if the turn brings an innocent baby, anyone on a draw is getting worse odds. If the turn shows another spade, you can check and fold against the likly flush, if some one bets.
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