PLO8 - Did I do something wrong or was I just doomed?

hachkc · #1 09-13-2005, 12:22 AM

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $4 BB (8 handed) converter

MP2 ($241.70)
Hero ($358.10)
Button ($217.60)
SB ($207.30)
BB ($367.05)
UTG ($140.55)
UTG+1 ($55.80)
MP1 ($370.60)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls $4, UTG+1 calls $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $20, Button calls $20, SB calls $18, 1 fold, UTG calls $16, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: ($88) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets $64, Button folds, SB folds, UTG calls $64.

Turn: ($216) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

River: ($216) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets $56.55 (All-In), Hero calls $56.55.

Final Pot: $329.10

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ac Js Jc Td (High: straight, queen high).
Hero has 2d Ts As Ad (High: one pair, aces).
Outcome: UTG wins $329.10.

Mendacious · #2 09-13-2005, 12:39 AM

Ok, most of the time if you have AA and the flop comes up with no pairs, and no straights or flush draws, I think you should lead out. The question is how much? In this case, you have poor position, 3 other players, AND in this situation you are probably only drawing to the nut low realistically. So, I think the better way to play it is to lead out conservatively, (maybe $20 again) or perhaps check and see what happens. Your bet will provide you with information AND does not automatically commit you to shoving in the rest of your chips. Right now you are drawing and are probably behind in the hi, with no low on the board. Plus, if you catch a low card on the turn, NOW you can leverage your low with AA hi backup against what is probably a weak high hand. Conversely, if a brick comes for you and there is a lot of action, you can get away cheaply.

I think a lot of people probably do what you did, and I think you were a little unlucky, but I think you are right to look for other ways to play this hand.

Burdzthewurd · #3 09-13-2005, 01:16 AM

I don't see any point in not-potting the flop unless you are weak and check or some dumb crap.

I think that's an easy bet to put UTG all-in on the turn, you can't fear a set or J9 or BS such as that. Yeah, he'd probably call anyway with gutshot+flush draw here, but awful turn free card, afwul.

Buzz · #4 09-13-2005, 03:39 AM

Kyle - Hard to believe Villain called your $64 after the flop with a hand that really isn’t playable after this flop in a limit game. Just goes to show me how very little I know about pot-limit or no-limit Omaha-8 games.

At any rate, you start with what I would call a premium hand for a limit game. Your hand simply has “nut, nut” written all over it. Although your starting hand is primo against any number of players in a limit game, fine nut-nut hands such as this one are rare and you should like as many customers as possible in a limit game.

I’d imagine it’s also a premium starting hand for a pot-limit game, but there clearly are also other considerations in a pot-limit game. I’m not sufficiently versed in the nuances of the game to comment on the wisdom of your betting here.

At any rate, you raise before the flop, then get a reasonably favorable flop which you pop with a $64 bet, but Villain hangs in there in the face of your onslaught! Unless Villain is really stupid, Villain evidently doesn’t believe your very legitimate value bets. Then Villain improves to a flush draw on the turn, a card that is a brick for you. And finally Villain makes a non-nut straight on the river with another card that is a brick to you. Villain’s bet on the river is an excellent bet because you’re not likely to have KJXX. And I like Villain’s check on the turn.

But I think Villain’s call of your flop bet is atrocious.

Anyhow, Villain sucks out on you and you lose.

This hand is sort of the opposite for you as the last hand you posted, the 2347n non-limit hand. In that hand, you caught fantastic, fantastic on the turn and river and scooped.

You make a lot of money when you catch fantastic-fantastic on the turn and river, and you lose when you catch brick-brick on the turn and river. This time you had the goods and you lost while that time you were a bit on the weak side directly before and directly after the flop but won.

Luck certainly is involved in how one fares when playing Omaha-8, but I think more so for some individuals than others. Hard to make any judgments on the basis of a few hands, but there seems a lot of luck involved in your playing style - and also in Villain’s. Maybe I’m way off base - just kind of a first impression.

Sometimes I’ll be in a game with someone who forces me to trust to luck. I like Omaha-8 better than Texas hold ‘em because there seems less of that, at least in terms of my own perception, in Omaha-8 than in Texas hold ‘em. But if somebody is going to bet at me whether he has something or not, then I’m going to have to hope each time he bets that it’s one of those times when he has nothing.

I can’t tell if that’s what’s happening to you here or not. In other words, Villain may be calling your flop bet, hoping this is one of the times when you have nothing. Villain has nothing after this flop - no good enough reason to stay in the hand unless you have given Villain good cause to not believe you.

And if you have, well... fine. This time it seems as though you have Villain trapped because you really do have a fine stating hand and a nice enough fit with this flop. Seems like you ought to be able to collect. However, if that’s the plan, it backfires when you catch brick-brick.

Just a bit of bad luck. Kind of evens out the fantastic luck you had with the 2347n hand.

Buzz

donkeyradish · #5 09-13-2005, 08:35 AM

The last call at the end is a tough one. You know you are beat with only 1 pair and although the pot odds made it tempting I think I would have given it up there.

Mendacious · #6 09-13-2005, 09:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
you can't fear a set or J9 or BS such as that

[/ QUOTE ]

In my experience with 3 callers there is not an insignificant chance that one has KK or QQ. However I am not advocating "fearing" such a hand. What I think is you want to put enough into the hand to chase most hands, but not so much that you become committed to a hand where you are way behind. A mid sized bet accomplishes this. Sure there is a chance than an ultra-aggressive player will re-raise you, but you should know exactly who that player is and respond accordingly. But chances are you will build a better pot for yourself, improve your pot odds-- AND not be forced to throw in your stack with a pair and a low draw.

hachkc · #7 09-13-2005, 01:39 PM

I had another post on this same topic earlier, how to play AA when it doesn't improve by the turn especially when there isn't a low or I don't have it. Also, is he going low or did he have OE straight draw on the flop? He may have hit it on the turn with the 10. What reasons would he have had to just call the flop bet? Guess I need to bring my balls with when I play these type of hands.

Drizztdj · #8 09-13-2005, 01:50 PM

He made a bad flop call and caught. You'll make money in the long run off players like this.

emptyshell · #9 09-13-2005, 03:14 PM

Pot it on the flop; go ahead and put the rest in on the turn. You want to maximum pressure on weak high hands to fold.

In general, AA + nut low draw on a rainbow, no straight board is a monster hand, even against three opponents.

Chamonyx · #10 09-13-2005, 04:40 PM

Why did you let him have a free card on the turn? You probably have the best hand, and you have "low insurance" so get it in.