KK preflop

[emil3000]

3/6 NL. I limp KK UTG+1. Mp, who is 36/3 preflop, meaning too loose and too passive raises to 24 Co, who is a 18/9 solid aggressive player raises to 90. Folded to me. What do I do?

[emil3000]

Bah... I have 600, loose player has 400, CO has us covered.

I don't usually limpreraise, so I have some trouble handling this fairly simple situation.

[Laddy]

Hiya,

The tight aggressive CO doesn't have to be too observant to notice a 36/3, therefore the CO being the decent, aggresive player he is he may well have a range of hands he'll reraise with, knowing that there's a very good chance he'll be beating the MP original raiser. Also, if you don't limp reraise very often, he's probably not concerned about you having a big pair.

So the question is obviously to either call or reraise (from $90 to $180, or $270??). The problem with this is, that he's unlikely to call your reraise with anything less than KK, and if he's got AA it'll be quite difficult for you to back out of this hand at thsi stage. Personally I like flat calling, and then seeing a flop. If an A falls then you can bet large, and if he calls then check/fold it down from there. If no ace comes then i'd check raise, and if he calls then you'll have to be careful.

Any thoughts anyone else? Agree/disagree?

[emil3000]

My concerns this hand is basically that by just calling I give original raiser ok odds to come in, and also put myself in bad absolute and relative position on the flop. Note also that loosie only raises 3%, he probably has something good.

[theben]

the TAG reraise probably wont call you with anything less than AA/KK here. tell me this, if you do call and the flop is Q or J high, then what are you going to do? you better have that planned out

in your spot, you may want to try moving in preflop and shut them all out. the TAG reraise could have anything from jj, qq, aa, or some AK hand. you'll probably only be called if beaten but theres enough in the pot to take down and make this play profitable--unless you and the other players have very deep stacks, in which case you should probably just call and see a flop.

the problem with just calling preflop is that if the board is rags, the TAG is most certainly going to make a very large bet into you and you'll have a big decision to make

[emil3000]

Intuitively the risk/reward ratio pushing doesn't seem right to me.

[creedofhubris]

Pushing preflop, tight guy will only call you with aces or the other kings. Still, you are likely to take down the pot, which is substantial, so it's not the worst play in the world.

I would smooth call and play poker. Letting other guy in isn't a huge problem.

[Rotating Rabbit]

Congratulations, this is about the worst possible preflop situation ever ! Frankly, this is practically a minimise-loss position with KK ! Ive even considered folding.

As a tilt monkey who calls all-ins with J9s these are my thoughts:

Do NOT raise.

If you raise, its effectively a gamble 'does anyone have AA?'. e.g. if you raise more than 100 (AA calls, and you'll be pot committed) you're committing 600 into a pot of 110 that nobody has AA. Someone would only have to have AA 1 in 7 times to make this -EV ! Needless to say we'll see AA much more than that here. As for a very small raise to squeeze out looseboy, all you're doing is pricing in TAG to call for set value on big implied odds, its not going to be a +EV move...now you dont know if you're being played with for set value, or if they have AA !

Calling is a bit better. Obviously your hand is still defined as JJ+ weighted towards AA. If the flop comes rags, and you lead out, only AA+ plays on and we're still pot commited if anyone raises, so once again we're betting our stack, but this time to win 270 which is slightly better, but if AA appears more than 30% of the time its a loser.

So what about a check-raise all in on rags? This is better- now we're betting on 1:1, so we'd only have to win 50% of the time, as TAG with (QQ, JJ) probably folds to your push even with these generous odds, if he bets out with them at all - it wouldnt take a genius to figure our you were plotting a c/r.

Definitely check-fold an A, check-fold the flop on Q or J high flop too. I'd probably slowplay a K too to get a bet from AK.

[n1bd]

I'm with you emil, a push is looking questionable here. (Is this 10-handed or 6- or...?)

The big thing that bothers me is MP's 3% PFR. If he raises only AA-JJ/AK, that is almost exactly 3%, so that's the sort of hand range you're looking at. If the CO is paying attention to the 3% and is reraising on values, then his hand should already be somewhere around AA-KK *when he makes it 90*, not just when he calls your push. I don't know how MP responds to a reraise and how he plays post-flop, so it could be that the CO is profitably semi-bluffing with position with AK or even 33. Maybe CO is plain unobservant.

You have put them in the general category of truthsayers (one is ABC passive, the other is tight), though, and the CO is "solid" and therefore probably observant, and they have both shown a lot of strength, so I think the chance that one or the other of them has AA is decent. The chance of running into AA is probably too high to be risking ~500 at 18% equity (you lose ~290 when called given the dead money) to take down ~130. (If you will sometimes get a push called by QQ or AK, then things are rosier, but that would be a pretty dodgy call given this action and MP's passive nature.) There has to be no AA something like 70% of the time for an all in to be profitable. MP has AA 22% of the time *by himself* if he only raises AA-JJ/AK and two Ks are gone. The CO has to be reraising MP's premium hands with pure air (like 33) a lot of the time to have AA less than 8%.

I think the best line is a flat call preflop, especially if you have a good idea of how MP will respond to the reraise. If he will reraise all in with exactly AA-KK, then you are in information heaven. Similarly, if he will fold anything less than KK, information heaven. If he will often push with AK/QQ, then you are no longer in information heaven, but your average equity when called has just jumped considerably, so you can make an easy call rather than a tough fold. If he will just call the reraise with QQ/JJ (AK?) and will play predictably post-flop, then you can even start getting away from MP's sets by weak leading when a Q or J flops and evaluating the action.

Then, if the coast is clear, as in MP didn't go apeshit preflop or after hitting a set, you can play ball with the CO. Check-raise him all in or bet out if he doesn't usually make continuation bets when he whiffs (you also obviously can't CR in the weak lead set detection line). Earlier I said the CO's hand "should already be somewhere around AA-KK *when he makes it 90*," but that was assuming he was privy to MP's PFR and that the CO wasn't making a "play." Once you have eliminated the risk of MP, I think there is enough of chance CO is oblivious or making a play to make a push profitable on a non-A flop.

If you are going to flat call preflop with KK most/all of the time, then you should also usually flat call with AA in this situation. (I'm assuming that there is no hand other than AA/KK that you would limp-cold call 90 with in this situation.)

[emil3000]

[ QUOTE ]
(Is this 10-handed or 6- or...?)

[/ QUOTE ]
Ten handed.

Thanks for doing some math. That's really important in this situation if you ask me.
As I see it, if I smoothcall, I pretty much has to lose my stack to his aces postflop assuming a raggy flop. Checkraise means all in, so... This is something I can live with.

MP is not likely to fold any of the hands he raises with to the reraise. He is loose.