PLO8 - Did I do something wrong or was I just doomed?

[hachkc]

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Why did you let him have a free card on the turn? You probably have the best hand, and you have "low insurance" so get it in.

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I figured that only reason he was calling was because he probably had a str8 draw on the flop and if he did, he may have hit it with the turn 10. Definitely a weak play, probably should have been more aggresive on the turn.

In the end it wouldn't have made any difference, I doubt he would have folded especially after he called the flop and now had a nut flush draw and str8 draws with no low on the board yet. Chalk it up to a good hand gone sour.

It's amazing to me that everyone seems to be missing the point about how to play this hand. Yes, the AA aspect of the hand plays well with few players, but the double-suited + A2 plays very well multi-way. PLO8 is about big pots and, unless you feel inferior the other players at the table, you should be wanting to build those big pots after the flop, not preflop when it is largely a tossup.

I'd limp preflop. This will succesfully disguise your hand and then you can decide whether you want to put your hard-earned money at risk after 7/9's of your hand is known. If you are the better player, you will make the better decision at this point. There will be many cases where you'll be shoving money in with a 90-10 advantage. If the flop misses you, you'll be able to get away cheap. Notice how your preflop raise induced you to put your whole stack in the middle, when only a very small percentage of it when in before the flop.

In general, if you are asking the question "did i do something wrong or was I doomed", it's almost always the former.

[Wintermute]

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It's amazing to me that everyone seems to be missing the point about how to play this hand. Yes, the AA aspect of the hand plays well with few players, but the double-suited + A2 plays very well multi-way. PLO8 is about big pots and, unless you feel inferior the other players at the table, you should be wanting to build those big pots after the flop, not preflop when it is largely a tossup.

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I don't see a problem with the preflop raise, provided that OP is also raising with weaker holdings at a decent rate and stacks are deep.

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I'd limp preflop. This will succesfully disguise your hand and then you can decide whether you want to put your hard-earned money at risk after 7/9's of your hand is known.

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Again, you're hand can still be well-disguised if you raise frequently preflop. Perhaps you prefer a tighter, more variance-proof approach, but it's not clear that this will yield the highest winrate.

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If you are the better player, you will make the better decision at this point. There will be many cases where you'll be shoving money in with a 90-10 advantage.

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As the better player, you will still be making the better decisions postflop when bet sizes are greater; you're trading the larger bet PF for greater leverage to steal pots on the flop and force more action on the flop than otherwise. Also, with the PF-limp approach, it is more difficult to get significant amounts in on a good flop.
If the flop misses you, you'll be able to get away relatively cheap. Finally, there is little reason to believe that your PF raise will induce you to put your whole stack in the middle in an iffy situation more than it will induce your opponent to do so as well, as it did in this case.
Your points are reasonable, but you make this decision sound too cut-and-dried.

[Mendacious]

Ride it like a Storntrooper

Your suggested style of play is reasonable, assuming stacks are *shallow*. You're suggesting to pump up the AA to be the best high hand, but it is very difficult to showdown AA if stacks are deep, unless the table is very passive. Obviously, if you could get allin (or close to it) preflop, that would be the way to go.

Otherwise, you are looking to induce other players to put money in with inferior hands, while you have a hand that can stand a lot of action. If you narrow the field, there are fewer people that can have these inferior hands. Think about how much money you make with flush over flush, or when you hit flops with nut low + flush draws and get multiple callers.

[Cooker]

But if he raises preflop, he can get more money in on later streets when he hits big with a deep stack. It will allow him more stealing opportunities when nobody flops well since he has already shown aggression. Also, raising preflop is another way to get players to put money in with inferior hands.

[gergery]

I think you are better off raising that hand, since you have good position, and a strong hand – as long as you are raising enough other hands so you are not giving your hand away. Your hand plays well multiway, but it also plays very well shorthanded.

RawTurkey makes some good points – yes your hand can be more disguised, and you’ll lose less when you miss the flop. But you’ll also make less on the times you hit your hand. And if you are going to win lots when someone else has a weaker flush, then you’ll win a larger amount if more money is in preflop and they are tied to the pot. Sure, you can win lots of money if you have nutlow with a flushdraw and multiple callers. But you can also get busted by the guy who would have folded to your preflop raise but stuck around cause you gave him great preflop odds. And If you make such great decisions postflop, then surely you would want to be making those great postflop decisions when even more money is at stake – presumably that’s why you play the $2k game, so your fantastic decision skills can leverage more $$ than when playing at lower limits.

Really, your arguments are no different than advising someone to limp in late position in holdem with AA – your hand will be disguised for those times you hit a monster set over set or get a monotone flushdraw. But the problem there and here is that this hand is so strong AND has position, that you give up too much when limping in exchange for your opportunity to hit big. In reality, most opponents who are willing to put their money in on the flop as a 90-10 dog will be even more willing to do so when more money is in the pot (and they are unlikely to be around long anyway).

Note; there are always exception and you should always mix up your game so as no to be predictable. But for the not-very-deep Party games, the above is true.

--Greg

If your preflop raises are getting a lot of callers, then I agree. If you are often winning the blinds and a couple of limps with a preflop pot raise, you give up a bunch of equity. The fact that you have AA2 makes it less likely someone else has something that can stand a raise preflop.

I'm not going to get busted thinking my AA overpair is good.

Comparing AA2x in Omaha to AA in Holdem indicates a serious misunderstanding of odds and betability. With AA preflop in holdem, you are always at least an 80/20 favorite. You can't hope for much better than that, you want to get as much money in as possible -- edges after the flop in Holdem are typically rather small. That is not the case for PLO8; before the flop, AA2 is probably a 60/40 favorite or so over most hands that call a raise. The big edges come after the flop.

Raising or limp-reraising with an AA hand with 100x BB stacks is not a horrible way to go. Against good competition, though, I think there are better ways to play it.

[hachkc]

Just want to thank everyone for the help.

Thank you.

[gergery]

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Comparing AA2x in Omaha to AA in Holdem indicates a serious misunderstanding of odds and betability. With AA preflop in holdem, you are always at least an 80/20 favorite. You can't hope for much better than that, you want to get as much money in as possible -- edges after the flop in Holdem are typically rather small.

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Fine -- use QQ in holdem as the example. The principle is the same, tho I’ll grant there is no AA equivalent in PLO8.

I wouldn’t agree that edges in holdem are small postflop. Both games offer the chance to have large edges postflop. Eg. If you have QQ and raise and your opponent has A9s and calls, then on a 943 board, then you certainly have a nice edge.

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Raising or limp-reraising with an AA hand with 100x BB stacks is not a horrible way to go. Against good competition, though, I think there are better ways to play it.


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I agree there are several correct ways to play it based on your opponents. And personally, I try not to play against good opponents…..