Donkbet with KK

nepenthe · #1 07-02-2005, 02:58 AM

CO in this hand is a LAG preflop. Postflop, he loves to represent big hands by isolation raising/3-betting with good as well as very marginal hands. UTG+1 is trying to play back and loosened up considerably to his detriment. UTG seems pretty straightforward and predictable.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, CO calls, 3 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13.33 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.66 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls.

River: (18.66 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets..

Comments appreciated on all streets.

mscags · #2 07-02-2005, 03:01 AM

I don't think I bet into him on this river. I think he is showing a considerable amount of strength here by three betting on the turn. Even if he is a LAG he has to have something decent in this spot.

setzf · #3 07-02-2005, 03:56 AM

if you raise the flop then co would be getting 8.5-1 which would protect you from a gutshot. as it stands by just calling co is getting 16-1 which would make just calling with just a lone A sometimes correct. there's no flush draw and you cant protect from middle or bottom pair but you can protect from a gutshot and overcard by raising so i think you have to do it. if in fact your opponnent had 78 then calling the flop instead of raising has turned out to be a terrible mistake. besides that i would just call down the river.

toss · #4 07-02-2005, 04:00 AM

I don't see why didn't raise this raggedy flop for value. Also I feel the best way to punish CO's predilection for 3-betting to represent is to cap him.

nepenthe · #5 07-02-2005, 05:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why didn't raise this raggedy flop for value. Also I feel the best way to punish CO's predilection for 3-betting to represent is to cap him.

[/ QUOTE ]
I felt there was a good chance I could trap 2 players for 2 BB on the turn as UTG is fairly straightforward and I tentatively put him on top pair. He could be playing the same way with QQ of course, but QK or AQ, or even a smaller PP was more likely.

As for CO's turn 3-bet, capping did not enter my mind although he has isolation-raised in big streets fairly often. He plays just about any 2 cards preflop so he could have anything, including a wide range of hands that possibly beats mine. But he has also often checked behind the river after showing tremendous strength on the turn - the ol' prepay-for-a-free-showdown play - hence my river bet. I didn't consciously plan ahead what to do if CO raised the river.

CO has taken similar lines at the turn with a good draw, or a pair + good/marginal draw, or a very strong hand.

MrStretchie · #6 07-02-2005, 06:07 AM

This was already a large pot by the flop. I'd be more concerned about protecting your hand than trapping players at this point. If they want to call you down, that's fine. But if you can fold lone aces and such things at this point, I'd say that's worth a whole lot more.

nepenthe · #7 07-02-2005, 07:13 PM

But I can only protect my hand from the CO at this point if at all. Unless CO has a gutshot or an overcard that he's willing to fold to 2 cold on the flop (unlikely given my read), I felt a turn raise would be superior value-wise and protection-wise.

SavageMiser · #8 07-02-2005, 08:17 PM

If you can't protect, you don't need to trap. Right?

When you called the flop, what was the plan if the turn landed an ace?

jjacky · #9 07-02-2005, 08:24 PM

if co had a gutshot on the flop he must have had a terrible loose cold call preflop.

jjacky · #10 07-02-2005, 08:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you can't protect, you don't need to trap. Right?

When you called the flop, what was the plan if the turn landed an ace?

[/ QUOTE ]

no, that's not necessarily right. he might only be able to get hands to fold that are drawing almost dead like 2 unders or a small pair.
i don't think there is any chance to get everyone with an ace to fold.