Thanks to sfer (kinda low content-ish)

private joker · #1 07-09-2005, 03:24 AM

Here's a hand I wouldn't ordinarily play this way (obviously the standard line is max aggression all the way -- cap PF, bet/reraise flop, etc.), but I learned from a thread not too long ago that a way to get more action on bigger streets is to stop-n-go a turn as opposed to check-raising it; that allows you to bet/3-bet the turn, and at worst you'll get called down, and at best the confused Villain will keep playing back at you.

I also learned from sfer (and possibly sthief & JBB, though I can't remember who participated in that conversation) that the opponents to do this against are aggressive types that will recognize other obvious lines (like the "check-call, check-raise" with a monster, etc.) but fall victim when you come across as a donk.

I was new to this table (so he may not have a read on me), but I had 130+ hands on Villain, and he was a super-TAG. 11/8/8.0. I'd seem him bet/fold a lot of turns (I remember because I played against him last night), and fold flops after 3-betting PF against an opponent's cap.

With this in mind, I used deceptioon PF and on the flop in order to donkbet the turn in an effort to disguise my hand. It worked. Thanks Dave.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 3-bets, 4 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 caps, Hero calls.

River: (12.66 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP3 raises, Hero 3-bets, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 18.66 BB

Willluck · #2 07-09-2005, 03:32 AM

wow, I really like it, it seems that know one likes to sway from the "standard play" in SS because you get flames for it, but I don't think there is any real valid argument against this play here, NH. I am drunk, I figured I better let 2p2ers know this when I post, Because this happened...

Harv72b · #3 07-09-2005, 03:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I also learned from sfer (and possibly sthief & JBB, though I can't remember who participated in that conversation) that the opponents to do this against are aggressive types that will recognize other obvious lines (like the "check-call, check-raise" with a monster, etc.) but fall victim when you come across as a donk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can't stress this enough. Against many party players, you're only missing bets by not getting into a raising war earlier. Of course, even against tough opponents you're still missing bets the odd time he has QQ or 77.

I think that this play is very rarely correct in a 3/6 game, but based on the read provided for the villian this looks like one of those times.

toss · #4 07-09-2005, 04:12 AM

Its true you'll often leave one or two bets on the table using this against many Party Players. But I still think its a good line to use on overaggro opponents. Maybe if Hero capped PF, led the flop, call a raised, then bet/3-bet the turn?

private joker · #5 07-09-2005, 03:16 PM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
Maybe if Hero capped PF, led the flop, call a raised, then bet/3-bet the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Two problems with this:

1. I don't know what the flop will bring or how strong his hand is, and given that it's heads-up, I'd like to let him take the lead -- if I cap PF, he can get away from any flop that doesn't hit his hand.

2. In his mind, the only hands beating him are AA and QQ, and he's thinking no way do I have those if I just called a 3-bet PF.

Coming alive on an unthreatening turn card makes it look like I have A6 and think my 2 pair is good. Now if he has AQ or QQ, I'm rock steady.

Granted, a lot of things have to go right for this play to work (that is, no board can turn into an action killer like 4 to a straight or flush, and he has to wake up with a real hand that hits the board), but this seemed like the hand and opponent to do it with. 98% of the time, though, I'll be playing these hands straight up.

toss · #6 07-09-2005, 04:10 PM

I see. I think I saw the action and assumed villain was a reckless player.

sfer · #7 07-09-2005, 06:21 PM

It also helps when he flops an underset. Ni han. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

private joker · #8 07-09-2005, 11:10 PM

<blockquote>Svar på:<hr />
It also helps when he flops an underset. Ni han. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

He had AQ. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

oreogod · #9 07-09-2005, 11:44 PM

I mean, really, how can he not go crazy here if he has AQ? If I was the Villian in his spot, I call the turn three bet and call the river.

Also, do u have a link to the thread where u got this line from?

nepenthe · #10 07-09-2005, 11:49 PM

Don't think about profits when making these plays. Overall you won't make more money on that individual hand doing this, reads or not. That's not even the main point. You should engage in these and similar lines for metagame purposes against regulars who are paying attention. To that end, you should sometimes play a hand as if you were looking at two entirely different hole cards than those which you do hold. Only by convincing yourself that you hold a certain hand will you have a decent chance of convincing your opponents of same.