Hand from 2+2game last night, turn play

bottomset · #1 09-01-2005, 02:21 PM

it was a serious game, and everyone was inline

opening from the CO with J7s is pretty loose, I had been showing down good cards so I decided to loosen up a bit, and take a shot, Fuji 3bets me from the BTN

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

ok got a heart draw, an weak overcard, and a weak backdoor straight draw.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, 

ok picked up a gutshot, and the 9 is unlikely to hit his 3bet range, I think there are a few options here

check/call
bet
bet intending to 3bet
check/raise

my thoughts were its possible he still has UI overcards, AK, AQ, AJ, and KQ all make sense if he doesn't have the heart draw, I think there is a good chance he folds right there, also his bet often means he has few outs if c/r since it will be an easy fold, or he has a good hand that doesn't mind it. I need to be right a fair amount of the time, but do improve often on the river

ok some scenarios

he calls the c/r, river pairs me .. I??
he calls, river bricks I??
he 3bets me, I hit the gutshot, river plan?
he 3bets me, I hit the FD, river plan?

TomBrooks · #2 09-01-2005, 02:34 PM

It looks like you need to improve to win and you have probably 12 outs, making you a 3:1 dog. I'd want to call this, not raise it. A raise is only netting you 1:1 with one opponent and you are opening up the possibility of getting three bet.

Shillx · #3 09-01-2005, 02:36 PM

This is okay, though there are other lines that you could consider. Notice that you don't really mind if he checks behind since you only have J-high. If the turn card were the 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for example, you would want to bet here to prevent giving AK-AQ/KQ a free card. If he checks behind here, all he is really doing is giving you a free card since he figures to have J-high beat at this point.

Obviously you shut down if he 3-bets and you don't find anything. If he does 3-bet, I would check/fold a river 7 and bet/fold a river jack (or maybe check/call but good players could possibly 3-bet this turn to take a free SD so I kinda like betting). Gamble and check/raise if you make the flush (if the card is low) or straight. If the flush card is the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] -Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I would just come out betting.

I'm not a big fan of the turn check/raise semi-bluff, and I probably would have check/called (I would be doing a good amount of bluffing on the river). I don't really like betting since I feel like A-big will just call it down. A check/raise in this spot probably gives you better fold equity since you have to fear a check behind by AK or AQ or KQ. When you check/raise, you are telling him that you don't fear giving a free card and he might lay down some hands that you want him too.

Brad

thesharpie · #4 09-01-2005, 02:38 PM

I like the turn, it will be hard for him to call with his AJ+.

When he just calls the check raise I pretty much always bet the river. I don't expect him to bet something I beat when I pair, but I expect him to sometimes call with something I beat. I think the pot is large enough to take a stab when it bricks to fold out KQ or AJ+.

When he 3 bets I check raise when we hit our draw.

kapw7 · #5 09-01-2005, 02:39 PM

I think C-Ring the flop is standard here. After showing weakness on the flop (you wouldn't check-call with a strong hand in a flush draw flop) he is not folding to a turn C-R very often and if he calls then you have to bet the river as well unless an non heart A (or K) falls.

kapw7 · #6 09-01-2005, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]

When he 3 bets I check raise when we hit our draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

C-Ring when we hit would be a mistake. (unless hes a maniac etc)

SCfuji · #7 09-01-2005, 02:47 PM

terrible play bset. you should quit poker now! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Shillx · #8 09-01-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

When he 3 bets I check raise when we hit our draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

C-Ring when we hit would be a mistake. (unless hes a maniac etc)

[/ QUOTE ]

You have it backwards. Check/raising the river after check/calling the whole way is a mistake. If he has AK or whatever he will just check behind on the river after we call the 1st two streets. We probably aren't taking a WA/WB line when we don't bet the river, so an even smarter villian would oftentimes check an UI AA or KK here since betting doesn't have any value on a lot of river cards. Either we missed our draw and will fold or hit or draw and will raise. Sometimes we will have a pair and will call, but these times are offset by the times that we fold a pair on the river and check/raise with a better hand.

We make our money when we check/call by bluffing the river from time to time. By using a proper bluffing strategy (we would be doing it about 4% of the time) we can make quite a bit of extra cash.

Brad

@bsolute_luck · #9 09-01-2005, 03:05 PM

i don't know what to do if we miss as when i c/r i figure i'm obliged to bet again. i hope to rid myself of this problem, but not sure when/how just yet.

if we hit our flush, i'm betting out and calling a raise.
i was thinking i'd c/r if our gutshot came in, but if he's 3-betting suited [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] OCs, he'll just check behind, so i'm not sure.

i'd like to hear what hands should be folding to this c/r? another problem of mine is if i have OCs, i'm calling and folding the river UI, if i have the suited [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] OCs, i'm 3-betting- is this spewing on the turn?

kenberman · #10 09-01-2005, 04:35 PM

I'd rather c/r the flop, and lead any non A or K turn.