party 30/60 hand I'm not happy with

[Paluka]

UTG and mid-pos unknowns limp. I have never seen them before, so they are not regulars and probably stink at poker. I limp in late position with QJo. Both blinds come along.
Flop J73 rainbow. sb checks, bb bets, utg calls, mid pos folds, I raise, sb folds, bb calls, utg calls.
Turn Ac putting 2 clubs on board. BB bets, utg calls, I call?
River 9. bb bets, utg calls, I call?

[stoxtrader]

why not call the flop and raise a non-overcard turn?

the way you played it who not fold the turn?

[skp]

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why not call the flop and raise a non-overcard turn?


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If one decides to wait for the turn to raise, I am not sure that an overcard on the turn should dissuade us from raising; in fact, it may give us more reason to raise i.e. the flop bettor will often follow through with a bet regardless of whether the turn card hit him and there is reason for him to think that the turn overcard hit you (if you raise the turn) given that you just called the flop on a board bereft of draws (or at least, it is my recollection that the flop was rainbow).

Also, given that you have QJ and the only kickers that beat you are a King and an Ace, a turn overcard is frequently better than a turn undercard vis a vis the original flop bettor. That is to say, if a ten comes on the turn, it's worse for you than a King on the turn because that ten may give the bettor JT which now vaults his hand over yours. If the King gives him KJ, then that's not as big a deal as he had you beat anyway.

hm...reviewing this, I suspect that my writing skills aren't up to par today...whatever...your reading skills should make up for my poor writing.

[andyfox]

"If one decides to wait for the turn to raise, I am not sure that an overcard on the turn should dissuade us from raising; in fact, it may give us more reason to raise i.e. the flop bettor will often follow through with a bet regardless of whether the turn card hit him and there is reason for him to think that the turn overcard hit you (if you raise the turn) given that you just called the flop on a board bereft of draws"

I find this works quite well (B&M games). Especially head-up, where they're more likely to continue to bet on the turn no matter what comes. Here there's another opponent to consider, but the fact that he didn't raise when an ace came is a factor in favor of continuing the plan to raise the turn.

The problem, though, is that the overcard that came is an ace. Guys play lots of hands with aces in them. My experience is that a continuation bet into an overcard on the turn when it is an ace is more likely a hand that either was helped by or doesn't fear the ace than when the overcard is something other than an ace.

[shemp]

This is six way. Go ahead and raise the flop -- or, given the smaller turn pot had you not, I'd say definitely abort the turn raise plan when the A hits.

I'm not sure your observations (however valuable) relate much to the hand at hand.

[skp]

yes, good points. I agree with your comments about the Ace deserving special attention.

If the blinds are tight I like to raise preflop. Postflop is tough, I like stox's comments.

[ggbman]

I like the flop raise for value and because it helps define your hand and makes it an easier fold if an ace pops up on the turn and it goes bet-call. Also, i'm sure you know what you're doing preflop, but i have hard time imagining you give up much (if anything) by mucking this preflop. Given that you made to the flop, i raise the flop as you did and muck the turn, you can see aces up here a lot, and if you have outs they are not all usually clean. When it goes bet/call, they both have worse hands almost never, even with the 2 clubs coming up.

[RED_RAIN]

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Also, i'm sure you know what you're doing preflop, but i have hard time imagining you give up much (if anything) by mucking this preflop.

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I also call this late position after limpers. Am I wrong to?

[Justin A]

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Also, i'm sure you know what you're doing preflop, but i have hard time imagining you give up much (if anything) by mucking this preflop.

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I also call this late position after limpers. Am I wrong to?

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No. This is a pretty standard call against likely bad playing opponents.