Did I play this KK correctly?

Student Caine · #1 07-26-2005, 03:12 AM

In my new search for +EV at Limit Hold 'Em I ran into a hand tonight and I am not sure if I played it correctly. Also, I am not looking for the specific results of this hand, but rather an idea if this is a +EV play over time.

I have no reads on anyone at the table:

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 5 folds, UTG calls.

At this point I put the Villain on AKs/AKo/AQs/AQo/AJs

Flop: (7.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, Hero calls.

Here I put villain on the AJs that I was looking at preflop. Is this too simplistic?

Turn: (7.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls.

Same as the flop...

River: (15.75 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks.

Here I figure that he is trapping with his AJs or he really has nothing and will not be calling any further bets.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

How is my line?

Eeegah · #2 07-26-2005, 03:17 AM

I just lost twice in one orbit with KK so I'm gonna say fold preflop [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Seriously, I think I'm done with raising once he 3-bets the turn, but that might just be me being weak.

Edit: You know, pokerstove gives you around 64% equity against the top 8% or so. This might be worth a shot on the river.

kapw7 · #3 07-26-2005, 03:26 AM

Why do you not consider AA/QQ/JJ? After the flop cap I don't go nuts on the turn. The river check looks very suspicious so I think checking was fine. You only beat a QQ there if he is very agressive.

Student Caine · #4 07-26-2005, 03:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you not consider AA/QQ/JJ? After the flop cap I don't go nuts on the turn. The river check looks very suspicious so I think checking was fine. You only beat a QQ there if he is very agressive.

[/ QUOTE ]

AA-JJ I figure he caps the betting. Certainly he does with AA. Is it typical for people not to cap QQ, JJ?

Kumubou · #5 07-26-2005, 03:41 AM

Or he may not cap AA because you would expect him to cap with AA.

THE TRICKERY!!1

Most sane players cap with QQ; some cap with JJ or AKs dependending on their mood, phase of the moon, etc.. Some people cap with any two because doing so is +dopeness.

I slow down to the turn raise -- he really is acting like a 'cute' AA here, and I honestly am just going "WTF" and want him to show down either trash or his flopped set or FPS-riddled rockets. That river check is 100% bizarre, so... uh... I prepare cats for orbit.

-K

Student Caine · #6 07-26-2005, 09:40 AM

I agree with you on the River check - looking back now it makes even less sense to me then it did last night.

davelin · #7 07-26-2005, 09:45 AM

Slow down on the turn. While it's good that you're trying to put Villain on a range of hands, you have to adjust this range with every new piece of information. Is AJ betting the turn after you 3-bet pre-flop and cap the flop? Probably not.

krimson · #8 07-26-2005, 10:05 AM

When he caps the flop and leads the turn you should just call down, this is a good sign that you are probably beat.

The range your giving an UTG raise is too thin, what about 99-AA and KQ, KJ?

imported_The Vibesman · #9 07-26-2005, 10:15 AM

After the flop cap and him leading out the turn I've got to figure him for something a little better than top pair. I might not raise the turn and definitely wouldn't cap. River check is fine, I am confused at this point as I don't know why he would check this river. I just want to see his hand.

GrunchCan · #10 07-26-2005, 11:22 AM

A couple things...

[ QUOTE ]
Also, I am not looking for the specific results of this hand, but rather an idea if this is a +EV play over time.

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This is excellent, and everyone should think about every play this way.

[ QUOTE ]
At this point I put the Villain on AKs/AKo/AQs/AQo/AJs

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is far too narrow a range to put the opponent on, especially if you don't have any reads on this guy and he is just the default player that he looks like to me. There is a universe of hands that a default player will PFR with from UTG, and open-raise/fold is an extremely rare line. I honestly can't remember the last time I've seen an openraiser fold to a single bet, even against just 1 opponent. You must include all pocket pairs, many suited connectors, and hands that "feel good" like ATo in your range. In other words, everything that isn't trash.

[ QUOTE ]
Here I put villain on the AJs that I was looking at preflop. Is this too simplistic?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is. It could also be an overpair of QQ or AA, but I doubt it since he didn't cap PF - but don't discount it entirely just yet. AJs/o is a definite possibility, but so also is a set of 5's, 8's or J's. If this guy is a lag, something like 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is also possible. The hand that seems most likely to me is a set of 8's, and the set of 5's is a close second. AJo doesn't PFR as often from UTG as the pocket pairs I feel, although it still PFRs frequently. But the most likely holding here is a set. You're either way ahead or way behind here and they seem close, and I'm just calling down.

There are lots of hands that are unlikely but possible for the opponent to have that you are ahead of - like QQ for instance - so this becomes a very close decision between just calling and raising. But honestly I just call here. It seems so close to you having 50% equity that a raise is basically just chopped between you, and this hand is a box of gunpowder. If you do chose to put a raise in, put in only 1. If he 3-bets you, definitely call down from there and show this hand down as quickly as possible.

The river tells me more that he's afraid that you just rivered him, not that he's trapping. But there's is absolutely no way he folds his 5's full, so don't bet. Just check behind on the river.

Overall you're thinking is very sound, becasue you are trying to put your man on a range based on the action. But I think you just need to tweak the ranges that you put people on. It takes experience and, unfortunately, many lost pots to surprising holdings.