Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Other Topics > Science, Math, and Philosophy

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 12-12-2005, 06:15 PM
hmkpoker hmkpoker is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 116
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Whatever the demon predicts, you WILL do.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I don't do what the demon predicts, does that mean I have free will?

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless you were privy to the demon's prediction and that would influence your behavior, then yes.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 12-12-2005, 08:28 PM
AlwaysWrong AlwaysWrong is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: cold callers anonymous
Posts: 59
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

If you wish to be simply factually incorrect, that is your right.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 12-13-2005, 03:41 AM
Piers Piers is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 246
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
1) prove that determinism exists.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you want to know what you will do in the future, just go to the appropriate point in space-time and see. Whatever you do, is what you were always destined to do. There is nothing you could possibly have done to change this.

The universe is its own model. A list of everything that has is and will happen. To see the future just go look itís as simple as that.

However I should add that its my belief that its impossible to improve on this. To be able to predict the future with 100% accurately before hand is not possible, at least not without in effect reconstructing the whole universe, but I do not that believe that a being can achieve this either directly or indirectly.

LaPlace's Demon cannot be shown to exist, so his argument disappears in a puff of smoke.

[ QUOTE ]
2) illustrate free will without determinism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Free will exists at the level of human experience. If we construct a model of the universe to examine the details of interpersonal behaviour of humans, it makes sense to include the assumption of free will into the model. This does not mean we believe that the assumption of free will is a true and accurate reflection of reality. It just means that the assumption of free will is useful for our current purposes.

When we create models of the universe, we do it to achieve certain ends and it is those ends that are important. It is perfectly acceptable to make assumptions known to be false if they make the ends easier to achieve.

Consider the large amount of our current technology base that has been developed using principles of Newtonian mechanics. People, who firmly believe that the assumptions of Newtonian Mechanics are wrong, still use the theory successfully.

We can only reason within the models we create. It is impossible for us to accurately model the universe. It makes sense to construct the models we reason within to reflect practical needs rather than impossible fantasies.

It is very useful to assume humans have free will, irrespective of whether they do or not.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 12-13-2005, 10:50 AM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
Free will exists at the level of human experience. If we construct a model of the universe to examine the details of interpersonal behaviour of humans, it makes sense to include the assumption of free will into the model. This does not mean we believe that the assumption of free will is a true and accurate reflection of reality. It just means that the assumption of free will is useful for our current purposes.

When we create models of the universe, we do it to achieve certain ends and it is those ends that are important. It is perfectly acceptable to make assumptions known to be false if they make the ends easier to achieve.
...
It is very useful to assume humans have free will, irrespective of whether they do or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is useful, but not necessary. It's just as good of a model (if not better, actually), to have physiological & environmental factors determine people's behavior. We can still alter people's behavior by changing their physiology (medication, education) or environment (rehab, prison).

It also helps in realizing the importance that people are raised in healthy environments that promote good behavior. We can't just hope that once a kid grows up and leaves a very bad environment, that their free-will will be able to choose to behave appropriately in society.
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 12-13-2005, 12:52 PM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 779
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
Unless you were privy to the demon's prediction and that would influence your behavior, then yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would that matter if my action was already determined at the big bang?

Stu
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 12-13-2005, 01:17 PM
purnell purnell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 154
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Unless you were privy to the demon's prediction and that would influence your behavior, then yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would that matter if my action was already determined at the big bang?

Stu

[/ QUOTE ]

Your knowledge of the demon's prediction would also be the result of prior events.


edit: removed an incorrect statement about Pierre-Simon Laplace. (Heh, I still learn something every now and then)
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 12-13-2005, 02:02 PM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 484
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
Laplace's Demon knows all the facts about the past and present and all the natural laws that govern our world, and uses this knowledge to foresee the future, down to every detail.

LaPlace's Demon never lies.

LaPlace's Demon says to you, "I know you are going to eat this bowl of ice cream".

[/ QUOTE ] If you are not going to eat the ice cream, at least one of these three premises has to be false. It could just as well be the second or third as the first. All you have done is set up a scenario with premises that contradict each other. Doesn't prove anything.

(Does the demon have the ability to shut up?)
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 12-13-2005, 02:31 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
All you have done is set up a scenario with premises that contradict each other. Doesn't prove anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's more of a paradox than a contradiction. But not even a very good paradox -- the demon can accurately predict your action by not letting you know what it is. Then, after you act, he can show you he was right.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 12-13-2005, 02:41 PM
wtfsvi wtfsvi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Norway
Posts: 484
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's more of a paradox than a contradiction. But not even a very good paradox -- the demon can accurately predict your action by not letting you know what it is. Then, after you act, he can show you he was right.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes he can. That would mean premise 3 is false. All four premises cannot logically be true at once:

He can predict the future 100% accurately.
He doesn't lie.
He tells you what you are going to do.
You act differently.

You say he can refrain from telling you what you're going to do, and the contradiction is gone. You are correct. Remove premise nr. 3, or any other one of the four premises above, and the scenario is no longer impossible and does no longer claim to tell us anything about fatalism.

edit:

(If you remove nr. 3, you will also remove nr. 4, because there will be no statement to differ from. In case that confused someone.)

(And English is not my first language. You might very well be correct that contradiction is not a good word in this context.)
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 12-13-2005, 02:58 PM
Stu Pidasso Stu Pidasso is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 779
Default Re: Two personal beliefs and their consequences

[ QUOTE ]
Yes he can. That would mean premise 3 is false. All four premises cannot logically be true at once:


[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously one of the premises has to be false. I'm saying premise 1 is false because fatalism is false.

If my fate was set at the big bang, why should it matter that the demon tells me what I am going to do. Fatalism holds that I must do what I am fated to do. It only matters if the demon cannot accurately predict the future. However fatalism(or determinism for that matter) says the demon must be able to predict the future. The reason fatalism falls down here is becuase of free will.

You people need to watch the Matrix trilogy again.

Stu
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions Inc.