QJs Live Hand Huge Pot

[CIncyHR]

OK, a friend who I'm playing the game with asked me to post this here. So here it is.

Button is a ridiculously loose calling station. He'll call preflop with most cards (he especially loves suited connectors and I have seen him show them down plenty of times already). Postflop he'll usually bet if he has a good piece, top pair or better, otherwise he calls you down.

SB is probably the biggest LAG in the game (which is certainly saying something). Loves to bluff a lot, but will give up most hands facing pressure (especially pressure from me because I have a reputation as a good player in the game.

Blinds are .25/.50 and I've got the biggest stack around $70, both button and sb have around $45-$50.

Pick up Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP. Folded to me, I open for $2 (4bb) - a standard raise in our game. This is a standard raisning hand from MP for me, especially since Ive got position ont he only other player I'm scared of and he has already folded. Button and SB call. Pot is $6.25.

Flop is 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. I've got two overs and the flush draw. Sb checks, I bet $4 (2/3 pot) on the continuation bet/semi-bluff. Button raises to $10. SB cold calls. I think about 3 betting, but decide not to jeopardize my stack until I get a look at the turn, and I call. Pot is $36.

The turn is the Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] making the board Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. So I have top pair and the flush draw. SB donks for $14. $50 in the pot. What's your play?

As far as the Sb's hand range, I'd say he could have pretty much anything. The nuts are a possibility, though I think hed check it considering the flop. A set, two pair, overpair to the flop, or a compelte bluff was the most liekly hand range. As far as Mr. Calling Station on the button is concerned, he could have had top pair, an overpair, two pair, a set, or two pair on the flop. Probably not much mroe than that. Remember he lvoes connectors.

What do you think?

[wdeadwyler]

On turn you are getting 50-14, or 3.57-1, so calling here doesnt seem that bad. If your q+j outs are clean, then you are making a plus ev call, and you will surely get some sort of payoff on the river if you hit.

On the downside are you prepared to fold the river ui in this giant pot to see jj take it down?

[wdeadwyler]

Oh come on this is an easy choice??? Where are the regulars?

[Andrew Fletcher]

This is an interesting hand. Not sure what to do, but I seem to find myself facing these sorts of situations in live action games that are really soft. A series of bets will happen that could mean literally anything. I have a weak holding with potential but the hand rage of villians is so high that it becomes really hard to know what to do.

[Bco1/75]

I think you might be the donkey in the game. Either that or the Button isn't really a calling station. Seriously, When a Calling station calls your preflop bet and the flop comes out rags do you really think he will fold. You shouldn't have bet that flop from the middle. The turn if the flop checked around. I think even with the Q you are beat and you built a big pot thats tough to get out of.

[elus2]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as Mr. Calling Station on the button is concerned, he could have had top pair, an overpair, two pair, a set, or two pair on the flop. Probably not much mroe than that. Remember he lvoes connectors.

[/ QUOTE ]

so how can button not have a straight? i can't imagine your equity being higher than 20% here on average against both opponents. at least we can be somewhat confident that your flush draw is good. what is button's range on the turn for raising sb's bet if you flat call. what is his range on the turn if you raise sb?

[Bco1/75]

sorry about the first statement. Building big pots with marginal holdings against calling stations is a big mistake that a lot of players trip up on. Usually you don't have to worry about them taking the lead away from you. So if you have a drawing hand and you know they are going to call if you bet and most likely give you a free card if you check....Why not take the free card, at least you will be saving some bets and it won't be as painful when you turn over a pair of Q's and he turns over two pair (Q8o).

[RED FACE]

I think this is tough. If you call and button has a made hand he will push on that draw heavy board. Damn that sb. If button wasn't a calling station and could fold a slowplayed preflop AA I'd push but as it is I would fold and watch sb very carefully, make notes on him and extract revenge later.

[wdeadwyler]

Hero wasn't trying to "build a pot" against the calling station, he was simply making his standard continuation bet (with 9 outs), on a board he thought unlikely to hit anyone.

As for the responses, I witnessed this hand, and was actually sweating hero's cards. SB's bet is pretty small, are you gonna fold every time someone gives you 3.5-1 with a made hand with plenty of outs, I think you are giving up alot.

We've gotten a few responses so far but I think the reasoning behind them has been pretty lackluster.

Someone made the point of checking the flop to take a free card. Hero does not have position, so checking this flop does not guarantee him a free card. If button bets, hero will have the option of c/c the flop, but loses all of his continuation bet folding equity (which may very well be small)

Someone did make a good point that if we flat call here button may raise the turn with a monster to shut out draws, but even if that is the case (but of course the raise wont be enough to shut out draws), by the time the action gets back around to hero he will prob be getting better than 4-1, so clearly this is the point in the hand where a decision has to be made. Does hero call, and basically commit himsself, push and hope to shut out button who may or may not have a monster, or fold getting 3.5-1 with at least 8 clean outs (assuming button or sb has a set)?


Edit: I am trying to keep this thread alive until my buddy gets off from work tonight. I do not think this turn decision is clear cut and would like to hear some more input.

[wdeadwyler]

This is an interesting spot someone say something!