Was this ruling good? (Bay101Live Tourney)

Bay101 Tuesday, 10/18 – ($50 buy in, $20 R/A) 94 players, 260 rebuys, 90 add-ons.

There’s about 21 players left, spread across 3 tables. I’ve been playing pretty tight, showing down good cards. I just recently lost half my stack when my AQo got sucked out by A9s (caught the 9 on the flop). I have about t8,000 which is a little less than average at this table.

Blinds are 300/600. I pick up black 7’s in MP. Folded to me and I open raise to t1800. A lot of quick folds, blinds folds and the dealer pushes the pot to me. I muck.

Right then, the button goes “Whoa, whoa, whoa…I’m still live.” He holds up his hold cards and claims that the pot is his because I mucked. I say, “BS, the dealer pushed me the pot. I didn’t muck until after the hand was awarded.” Lots of arguing back and forth and the TD is called over.

The dealer tells Lloyd what happened and he fishes my cards from the muck. Button gripes that my cards are dead as soon as they hit the muck. I gripe that his cards are dead cause button didn’t take any action…he didn’t verbally call or raise, or physically move any chips forward.

Lloyd asks me what my cards were and I whisper pockets sevens in his ear. TD declares the action is still live and the button begrudgingly calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (Pot is t4,500).

I push the rest of my chips in hoping he has Ace. I have him covered
but he quickly calls and turns over K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Turn and river are bricks and I almost double up with my set.

Button is pissed and complains to TD. Dealer pushes me my chips and apologizes to me. I say no problem, that was beautiful flop.

Although it worked out for me, I am wondering whether that ruling was good. Should either button or my hand have been killed rather than continue play?

BTW – Call me bubble boy. I go card dead, have to make big lay downs (raised and reraised in front of my pocket 10’s. I would have flopped a set but JJ made his on set on the turn), and get blinded out in 12th when blinds were 2000/4000. Meh.

Thanks, John

[CardSharpCook]

I heard about a similar situation and the same action taken at a Bike tourney. Seems very fair to me.

[fnurt]

I am no rules expert but it doesn't seem right that cards got fished from the muck. It seems like someone has to lose.

Cards that hit the muck pile are dead. Period. The TD was wrong to fish your cards out. However, if the player failed to act and the dealer declared the hand complete then it should be his loss, not yours.

I've had something similar happen to me in the past - the dealer actually grabbed my cards into the muck pile by accident while I was in Seat 1 and happened to be all-in. I hadn't moved them away from the rail, looked over at a friend on the rails and turned back to find my cards gone. It was purely an accident on the dealers part, however the rules specifically state that cards that hit the muck pile are dead and out of play. The other players at the table even argued on my behalf, but the TD would not fish any cards from the muck pile. I had to pay the consequences. I was refunded the difference in chips that weren't covered by other players and watched as the flop came to make what would have been a set for me and the winning hand. I played the board and lost. This was with 12 players left and the tournament paid out 9 places. It's tough to swallow but those are the rules.

[SossMan]

so long as the cards were readily definable, that was a good ruling. I'm very surprised that they didn't call Sam over though.
If the dealer pushed you the pot and you mucked and the cards were not readily definable, then the button forgoes any right to the pot by not speaking up. If, however, the blinds simply acted out of turn and mucked, and you mucked when you saw the BB muck (but the dealer didn't push you the pot) then your hand is dead.

All in all, given that it seems your cards were readily definable and you told the TD what you had and everyone agreed upon the action, then it seems like a very good ruling.

BTW, I play those tourneys once in a while, maybe we'll see eachother there.

[Lloyd]

Nothing specified in the TDA rules, which some but not all places follow. There are a couple of issues at conflict here. First, it's a player's responsibility to call "time" and not let the play go past him. This happened at a table I was at during a Lucky Chances tourney and the director was very clear about this. However, in Roberts Rules of Poker it talks about retrieving cards from the muck if easily done and in the best interest of the game.

This is one of those tough calls and you can't really blame the TD for making one decision over the other.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Nothing specified in the TDA rules, which some but not all places follow. There are a couple of issues at conflict here. First, it's a player's responsibility to call "time" and not let the play go past him. This happened at a table I was at during a Lucky Chances tourney and the director was very clear about this. However, in Roberts Rules of Poker it talks about retrieving cards from the muck if easily done and in the best interest of the game.

This is one of those tough calls and you can't really blame the TD for making one decision over the other.

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i can't imagine him awarding a pot to a player who delayed and didn't speak up until the pot was pushed.
if the dealer pushes me a pot, and then they try to take it from me, they will have to pry it from my dead hands.

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Cards that hit the muck pile are dead. Period. The TD was wrong to fish your cards out. However, if the player failed to act and the dealer declared the hand complete then it should be his loss, not yours.

I've had something similar happen to me in the past - the dealer actually grabbed my cards into the muck pile by accident while I was in Seat 1 and happened to be all-in. I hadn't moved them away from the rail, looked over at a friend on the rails and turned back to find my cards gone. It was purely an accident on the dealers part, however the rules specifically state that cards that hit the muck pile are dead and out of play. The other players at the table even argued on my behalf, but the TD would not fish any cards from the muck pile. I had to pay the consequences. I was refunded the difference in chips that weren't covered by other players and watched as the flop came to make what would have been a set for me and the winning hand. I played the board and lost. This was with 12 players left and the tournament paid out 9 places. It's tough to swallow but those are the rules.

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Am I the only one who feels like "those are the rules" is often an incredibly crappy defense? Any number of things could have been done here that were more fair including pulling your cards out of the muck. If that upsets some people, then you could be refunded all of your chips, and the rest of the players could then act as they wished. The hand could be declared dead and dealt over. Perhaps the worst alternative would be that you are dealt two random cards and at least allowed to play those. In situations where the player could be acting wrongly to gain an advantage, then a rule like this must stand. However, when it is an obvious dealer error, then another reasonable course of action should be taken (or perhaps, a more reasonable rule should already be in place to dictate what happens here). No one folds after going all-in.

Will

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cards that hit the muck pile are dead. Period. The TD was wrong to fish your cards out. However, if the player failed to act and the dealer declared the hand complete then it should be his loss, not yours.

I've had something similar happen to me in the past - the dealer actually grabbed my cards into the muck pile by accident while I was in Seat 1 and happened to be all-in. I hadn't moved them away from the rail, looked over at a friend on the rails and turned back to find my cards gone. It was purely an accident on the dealers part, however the rules specifically state that cards that hit the muck pile are dead and out of play. The other players at the table even argued on my behalf, but the TD would not fish any cards from the muck pile. I had to pay the consequences. I was refunded the difference in chips that weren't covered by other players and watched as the flop came to make what would have been a set for me and the winning hand. I played the board and lost. This was with 12 players left and the tournament paid out 9 places. It's tough to swallow but those are the rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

Am I the only one who feels like "those are the rules" is often an incredibly crappy defense? Any number of things could have been done here that were more fair including pulling your cards out of the muck. If that upsets some people, then you could be refunded all of your chips, and the rest of the players could then act as they wished. The hand could be declared dead and dealt over. Perhaps the worst alternative would be that you are dealt two random cards and at least allowed to play those. In situations where the player could be acting wrongly to gain an advantage, then a rule like this must stand. However, when it is an obvious dealer error, then another reasonable course of action should be taken (or perhaps, a more reasonable rule should already be in place to dictate what happens here). No one folds after going all-in.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

The rule reads "It is the players responsibility to protect your cards at all times." At the time, I honestly thought I was in the right and deserved my cards returned to me. I came back and did some investigation to find that the rule is true of almost any major tournament. Any card that hits the muck pile is declared dead and cannot be returned to play. I would have loved the opposite to be the correct ruling, as I probably would have gone on to win the tournament being 2nd in chips after that would-be win. I've been back to that tournament once since and was within reach of the FT when I busted on the bubble. It was rather entertaining to hear the modified rules, which now specifically stated that your cards cannot hit the muck pile or they will be declared dead. They actually changed the wording of the rules read at the start of the tournament thanks to my fiasco.

Saying "Those are the rules" is probably more due to sportsmanlike conduct than it is truly beleiving I deserved to lose that hand. I walked away from that table a gentleman and will be back another day to win it.

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...I'm very surprised that they didn't call Sam over though...

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This was on Tuesday...Sam's day off. Sometimes he's there playing at the cash tables (wasn't yesterday though).

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...If the dealer pushed you the pot and you mucked and the cards were not readily definable, then the button forgoes any right to the pot by not speaking up...

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That's exactly my point. However, I wasn't sure whether my cards being "readily definable" were reason enough to keep the hand live. I only mucked because I thought the hand was over since the dealer pushed me the pot. I wasn't acting out of turn. In fact, no one at the table even saw that button still had his cards, they were being covered by his hands.

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All in all, given that it seems your cards were readily definable and you told the TD what you had and everyone agreed upon the action, then it seems like a very good ruling.

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Being results oriented, I thought it was very a good ruling! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] However, if that third diamond hit the board, I'd have probably have a different opinion.

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BTW, I play those tourneys once in a while, maybe we'll see eachother there.

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Cool, see you there. Here's how you can recognize me...I'll be the asian guy yelling "Buffy, REBUY!" every third hand.