A Play Sans Cards...(long)

PygmyHero · #1 11-18-2005, 06:55 PM

I am going to post two hands here, but the key is what happens in between the hands. Feel free to comment on my play in the hands though.

This hand occurred shortly after I sat down, and I had no read on the villain.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, Villain calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Villain calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Villain calls.

River: (5.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 6.75 BB

Before mucking, I typed, "don't know if I can get away," and used almost my full allotment of time. The following conversation then occurred:

Villain: ace?
PygmyHero: of course
PygmyHero: maybe a bad laydown
Villain: thougt I had queen?
PygmyHero: flush card on the end also
Villain: ok
PygmyHero: so you're saying I had you?
Villain: no a split'
PygmyHero: hmmm...well, well played then
PygmyHero: wait...but what was your kicker?
Villain: you should have concidered the pot ods
PygmyHero: I considered many things [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Villain: my kicker was not in play
PygmyHero: so your kicker was less than a T?
Villain: yeah that is why i raised when the pair came up
PygmyHero: uh-huh
PygmyHero: thanks for the info [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
PygmyHero: I appreciate it
Villain: np

I had not been at this table for long, but for the most part it was chatty and friendly. The way our conversation following the hand proceeded, I believed the villain about the hand and made a note on him/her saying, 'Will CC an EP PFR with Ax,' or similar.

I was talking mostly with a fellow 2+2er, who, later revealed that they had correctly read my hand as not containing an ace. This person also concurs with my assessment that the villain was telling the truth.

It should be pretty obvious where I'm going with this by now, but..

By the time this second hand occurs, I have a pretty good read on the Villain - I think he is a weak calling station.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, Villain calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Villain calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Villain calls, BB calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Villain raises, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, Villain folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

I was confident that Villain had another small ace, and did, in fact, turn out to have A7.

Now maybe this hand was destined to occur anyway, but the point I wanted to make is that my table talk allowed me to gain some knowledge of my opponent (and, as a side benefit, maybe making everyone at the table more likely to bluff me in the future), which gives me an edge. Again, maybe hand 2 occurs whether or not I have a read. But in the future, if hand's like hand 1 recur, I would easily (and comfortably) be able to fold in hands that were like the first one. At the same time, I would be able to extract more value from those hands when an ace does not flop (but there are other overs).

I guess I feel like much of the talk in the ML Forum (and maybe everywhere in 2+2 - I don't get out much) centers around the cards and the play of those cards. Rarely do I see substantial discussion of other aspects of the game. For instance, the meta-game (usually there are only brief comments about it existing), note taking, cultivating reads, etc. To me, this example is about table talk, table image to a lesser extent, and extracting information from your opponents (cheaply - without paying a bet).