Pokerroom Raids and Players' Money

[Gandor]

As the BW raid thread was getting long, I felt this needed a new thread so a discussion could be made. While IANAL, I believe we as players have a problem when it comes to these raids and our money.

Under the current arrangement with the various rooms in NYC, we as players have no legal ownership to our money while we play our games. We happily give our money to the house in exchange for house currency to use until we call it a night. The problem is, when a raid occurs, the poker room has possession and ownership of our money. At this point all we have are gambling devices which are further evidence of illegal activity.

Is there a way to arrange things such that our money remains legally in our ownership during the course of play? Could escrow laws or some form of contract preserve our ownership status of the money?

I posted this in another thread before I saw your thread. FWIW, an escrow system that puts the clubs on the hook for seizure of funds will never happen. No club owner would agree to that risk, nor should they.

I actually think the clubs should develop a "secure cashier" system, where chips are paid for (and redeemed) offsite from the actual club where play occurs. (Think Japanese Pachkinko parlor approach.)

You go to location A and give the cashier $500. He makes an electronic entry that authorizes you for a rack of reds. You then go to location B and pick up your rack of reds. After pummelling the monkeys for 4 hours, you now have two racks of reds. You take them to the cage at location B, and the cashier there makes an electronic entry authorizing you to pick up $1000. You walk to location A, show ID, and pick up your money.

If the cops ever come to location B, the cashier at location A leaves with the money. The floor at location B takes a chip inventory. Players redeem later.

Granted, there are some security/embezzlement risks with this approach, but if it were done correctly, bankrolls would be a lot more secure.

Look even if you were playing with cash instead of chips you run the risk that the cops will seize all the cash.

Even though it may be debatable whether the police have the authority to seize the cash (they almost certainly at least have the authority to seize it as evidence) but even if they seize it for forfeiture it usually ends up costing you more to go and fight the seizure than to give up the money.

Bottom line is that these clubs need to be lowkey. People should only bring as much money as they need and everyone should be aware that they are taking the risk that they could lose their whole roll to a raid.

Also from the other thread an idea I would like to offer for discussion here:

I discussed a different idea with a few players recently. You essentially develop a collective. No time is taken, no rake, no tourney fees. Every member is a part owner and contributes to a seperate foundation that handles rent on the location, supply costs, and all other overhead.

In this way no one is "profitting from gambling" as set out by the NYS penal code and the room would be totally legal. There would be harassment I'm sure, but there is no owner and no profit thereby no law broken.

Step 1: bribe the cops
Step 2: ???
Step 3: profit!

Seriously, what about using Neteller or Firepay or some other online solution?

[canis582]

The cops must be making $100K+ each time they knock one of these places over.

[other1]

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The cops must be making $100K+ each time they knock one of these places over.

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Actually I'm pretty sure 'the cops' get the same salary whether they are busting a poker club or writing a parking ticket. I assure you it isn't 'the cops' that want these places closed down.

Actually when they have mopney forfeited as the proceeds or instrumentallity of a crime it generally goes to benefit law enforcement agencies. And though it doesn't necessarily mean larger salaries for the police it does indirectly help police negotiate higher salaries. It also benefits them by providing more money for other perks, maybe they start buying better quality coffee at the station, maybe some higher level cop gets to go on a law enforcement training seminar in Las Vegas, there is less pressure from above to cut overtimes costs, more cops get funded for fake jobs like DARE officer.

Also its not entirely uncommon for the seized cash to get skimmed.

I represented a guy who was arrested for possession of marjiuan (not even technically a crime in NY) the same level offense as a traffic infraction. He had over $30,000 cash on him at the time. The State Police took his $30,000 and proceeded to try to forfeit his $25,000. Thats right. They took all the $30,000 but only claimed to take $25,000.

Guess where the $5,000 went?

[ QUOTE ]
Also from the other thread an idea I would like to offer for discussion here:

I discussed a different idea with a few players recently. You essentially develop a collective. No time is taken, no rake, no tourney fees. Every member is a part owner and contributes to a seperate foundation that handles rent on the location, supply costs, and all other overhead.

In this way no one is "profitting from gambling" as set out by the NYS penal code and the room would be totally legal. There would be harassment I'm sure, but there is no owner and no profit thereby no law broken.

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wow, you mean like....having a home game in somebodys apartment/basement/garage?

nobody has EVER thought of this before [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

the semi-open nature of these clubs is what attracts fish and is why people play in them instead of playing in a home game where everyone that plays would have to be approved (what you suggest)

if youre suggesting someone run a rakeless undergroud room, be my guest to piss away thousands of dollars a month on dealers/rent/equipment and get zero in return.