Should I have raised? #2

[RobGW]

I did not say it wasn't a good hand, its just not a monster. And I am not suggesting that a raise is not in order either. But $1,600 into a $100 pot? What I am saying is that if you learn to play better post flop it is possible to get away from this without losing all your chips.

[mlagoo]

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I did not say it wasn't a good hand, its just not a monster. And I am not suggesting that a raise is not in order either. But $1,600 into a $100 pot? What I am saying is that if you learn to play better post flop it is possible to get away from this without losing all your chips.

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didn't I say in my first post that the 1600 flop bet is ridiculous?

however, here's an example of what the action might go like normally: you pot it, he raises to 300-400. you now have two moves: you can reraise to try and push out any draws, or my line (right or wrong) would probably be to smoothcall and push a brick turn. if a diamond or a gap-filler comes on the turn, i'm done with the hand. but if a 2s comes, I'm putting all my chips in anyway, and he's instacalling with the nut straight.

when am i supposed to get away from the hand, assuming the turn is a non-threatening card?

[Blarg]

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Ok, I mean...

I feel like I'm missing something because you have 4900 posts and should know this.

But... betting big to push out draws is one thing. Betting 1600 chips into a 100 chip pot is something completely different, isn't it?

I'm not saying you don't go broke on this hand... you both flopped monsters. I'm just saying... what the hell is with that flop bet?

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First, a disclaimer. The 4900 posts are from talking about movies in OOT.

I bet huge because I didn't want calls(bok bok bok) and didn't really expect them expect them, but if I got them, I figured I might double up. If someone was going to outdraw me, I didn't want them to take a chance on doing it without imposing a terrific penalty on them.

This situation frustrates me, and that's why I'm asking for feedback. It's not all that rare for me to see this one pop up.

I figured if I bet a more reasonable amount, the flop looked dangerous enough that there was quite a good chance I would both get outdrawn and pay off the villains, which puts me in the same position as I would be before the turn -- committing my stack -- but without the chance of winning the pot ouright.

I do think you're right about this not being the ideal time to do this, as the reward was fairly low. But I see people call with total garbage so much in the 10's that doubling up from someone's random calling impulse or heads-up chasing of a draw isn't too rare.

These kind of hands really feel like push or fold with me. I hate just betting them. That just seems to be inviting people to beat me while I'm holding very vulnerable cards.

Am I so chieken that I'm losing value? When with bottom two pair, maybe I'm so gunshy I'm overcompensating.

[TexInAtl]

What happened to the concept of gaining information ATF? You have a really good hand, not a GREAT hand, but a winning hand none the less. Why would you only want to win the 90 in the pot with a potentially winning hand? Why not make your opponents pay for their draws? Take this line for example:

Hero: 10s8h in the BB (sees the flop for free)
Villian: XX in MP limps

Flop comes: Qh, 8d, Td Hero checks, MP bets 90, SB folds, Hero raises to 270-300ish, and MP SMOOTH CALLS (WARNING BELLS, WARNING BELLS)

Turn comes: 7c Hero bets 300-350ish, MP SMOOTH CALLS again. At this point, Hero should be done with the hand. Hero gained all the information he/she needs without doubling up Villian. Villian's actions from this point on are irrelevant.

Come on guys, there is such a thing as post flop play. I've read one thread this morning talking about the +EV of pushing 4s5s PF, and people flipping out because Party has added a 75/150 level which means more play before people can get to the all-in or fold mode.

[mlagoo]

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Flop comes: Qh, 8d, Td Hero checks, MP bets 90, SB folds, Hero raises to 270-300ish, and MP SMOOTH CALLS (WARNING BELLS, WARNING BELLS)

Turn comes: 7c Hero bets 300-350ish, MP SMOOTH CALLS again. At this point, Hero should be done with the hand. Hero gained all the information he/she needs without doubling up Villian. Villian's actions from this point on are irrelevant.


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i hate checking the flop. you're going to give a free card on a board like this? enhhh...

i don't think the call of your turn bet would set off warning bells for me. there is like 800 in the pot (fuzzy math) and you bet 300 into it. you're giving him odds to draw, especially if he has diamonds and any sort of a gutshot or pair.

in conclusion, i disagree.

[TexInAtl]

So, in short, you'd rather lose the majority of your chips and double your opponent when you're beat than to try to gather information to find out whether your beat or not?

If so, that doesn't seem to be very +EV. If not, then suggest a different line. I'd be interested in seeing an alternative way to play this hand while not completely committing 1000 chips to bottom 2. If you're already gonna commit 1000 chips to bottom 2, what's wrong with the 1600 flop bet?

[mlagoo]

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So, in short, you'd rather lose the majority of your chips and double your opponent when you're beat than to try to gather information to find out whether your beat or not?

If so, that doesn't seem to be very +EV. If not, then suggest a different line. I'd be interested in seeing an alternative way to play this hand while not completely committing 1000 chips to bottom 2. If you're already gonna commit 1000 chips to bottom 2, what's wrong with the 1600 flop bet?

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lol.

whats wrong with the 1600 flop bet is that youve got a strong hand and you want value out of it, not the 100 chips that got in the pot preflop.

i already suggested my line. i would lose my chips here if a blank came on the turn. that's the way i play and i don't think its wrong (and no one has convinced me otherwise in this thread). some hands you just are bound to lose your chips.

what sort of insightful information are you gaining by betting <1/2 pot on a draw heavy board on the turn? either he has a monster and is trapping or he is still drawing and you are giving him odds to do so.

[Blarg]

Doesn't your giving a free card on the flop basically give the opponent the very opportunity to beat you that you're worried about in the first place? If any of numerous draw cards comes up, as well as any ace or king, aren't you better off tossing the cards outright instead of committing another few hundred to the pot, and possibly another few hundred more?

I see 6,7,9,J,K, and Ace for straight cards, plus any diamond. There are so many ways to hit a draw on this board it's staggering. It's like there's hardly anything that can hit the board that WON'T screw you.

Letting draws in for free seems to me to be throwing away your hand without even giving yourself a fair chance to win.

It's almost impossible for an OP to discuss a hand without appearing like he's arguing or being stubborn unfortunately, and I did pick this hand specifically because I know it's such an exaggerated play and therefore likely to provoke comment and some give and take and a few big belly laughs at the expense of your hero, our humble narrator.

I'm well aware that this was a massive move to make at the pot.

I'm just wondering if giving up 600, or maybe my whole stack anyway, to find out street by street where I am, which in two more cards is very likely to be beaten if I'm not already, is really all that much better than making a quick snatch at 100 chips and being done with it. I hate dribbling them away chip by chip on a board that shows me so little promise and shows so much promise to the villains.

It seems this hand has already provoked some strong answers, including some about a word long that the play was moronic. I'm not sure how much that's being said merely reflexively without really knowing or caring about the problem at this point, though, particularly taking into account that we're at the 11's and not the 109's, and especially since one-word answers are often said just for fun and for ego purposes, so it's hard to rely on them for much.

[adanthar]

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It seems this hand has already provoked some strong answers, including some that the play was moronic. I'm not sure how much that's being said merely reflexively without really knowing or caring about the problem at this point, though, particularly taking into account that we're at the 11's and not the 109's, and especially since one-word answers are often said just for fun and for ego purposes, so it's hard to rely on them for much.

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The play *was* moronic. I don't care if it's the 109's, the 11's or the 1.10's, it's moronic. It's not quite as horrific as it seems at the 11's because you'll get the occasional curiosity lookup call from one pair and AA, but jeez, I hope I don't have to explain why pushing for 18x the pot on a coordinated board is a bad thing to a guy with 5K posts. I mean, even the people in small stakes NL would be horrified over this.

Oh no, an A or K will give someone a straight? Yeah, and if you have aces, get callers and the board comes T52, they could have a set, but you don't play like that, do you?

[TexInAtl]

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Doesn't your giving a free card on the flop basically give the opponent the very opportunity to beat you that you're worried about in the first place? If any of numerous draw cards comes up, as well as any ace or king, aren't you better off tossing the cards outright instead of committing another few hundred to the pot, and possibly another few hundred more?

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You're not giving away a free card though. You're setting up to take the odds for the draw away and to gather information. I didn't say to check the flop to give a free card. I said check the flop and RAISE your opponents bet in order to take away the odds of calling on a draw correct. If they take the free card, the 7 comes on the turn, and it's a greater possiblity that they've made their draw. What do you have invested at this point if they take the free card? T30 right!!! Not saying that it's correct, but then you could check fold the turn and you're out T30 instead of losing T1000.

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I see 6,7,9,J,K, and Ace for straight cards, plus any diamond. There are so many ways to hit a draw on this board it's staggering. It's like there's hardly anything that can hit the board that WON'T screw you.

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So, having said this, do you really think that your bottom 2 will be good if this hand goes to showdown?

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Letting draws in for free seems to me to be throwing away your hand without even giving yourself a fair chance to win.

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Again, that's the purpose of the flop C/R.

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I'm just wondering if giving up 600, or maybe my whole stack anyway, to find out street by street where I am, which in two more cards is very likely to be beaten if I'm not already, is really all that much better than making a quick snatch at 100 chips and being done with it. I hate dribbling them away chip by chip on a board that shows me so little promise and shows so much promise to the villains.

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I think this stems from a fear of post-flop play, and the inability to get away from a strong, but not the nuts, hand.

On a side note, I had a hand very similar to this the other day. Very first hand of a $10&1 Sng:

I was in the BB with KdJd. UTG limps, MP raises to 80 (10/15 blinds), I call, UTG calls.

Flop comes: Ks Qc Jc(Pot 250) I check, UTG checks, MP bets 200. I raised to 600 thereby taking the odds for draws away. UTG pushes for 720, MP calls, I call.

Turn was a blank. River was the 7c

I turn over top and middle pair, MP turns over AJ for middle pair top kicker.

UTG turns over 6c4c for a rivered flush.

Point: Some people absolutely don't care about the odds and will chase their draws no matter what the cost.