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  #21  
Old 12-03-2005, 05:49 AM
PokerBob PokerBob is offline
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Default Re: 200/400 bellagio vs v good player

[ QUOTE ]


I hate your 3 bet preflop against a top player. You are out of position and will miss most times.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. BK said that he has given her quite a bit of rope when he is in the blinds, and it is reasonable to believe that she is opneing very liberally against him. Being OOP sucks, but he likely has an equity edge agaisnt her range, not to mention the fact that last time he popped her back he showed down KK. IMO it is also good for metagame purposes to let her know she isn't gonna get a free ride every time she opens.
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  #22  
Old 12-03-2005, 05:55 AM
PokerBob PokerBob is offline
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Default Re: 200/400 bellagio vs v good player

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is such a common belief, that I'd like to discuss it further. Why, exactly, do you have to 3-bet to seize the initiative? Is there some rule that you can't bet the flop unless you 3-bet preflop?

I think people get in this mode where they either have the lead, in which case they bet the next round, or they don't have the lead, in which case they check. This causes all kinds of weird suggestions like the idea that you must 3-bet because otherwise you are forced to check-fold an ace high flop. Huh? Why don't you just bet the flop??

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO it is much easier to get them to fold (a) a better hand or (b) a hand with odds to draw if you take this "initiative" thingy.

If she opens A7o and gets 3 bets by BB, IMO she's gonna have a hard time justifying a calldown if the board comes Q92.
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  #23  
Old 12-03-2005, 08:42 AM
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Default Re: 200/400 bellagio vs v good player

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
it's important to 3 bet and seize the initiative.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is such a common belief, that I'd like to discuss it further. Why, exactly, do you have to 3-bet to seize the initiative? Is there some rule that you can't bet the flop unless you 3-bet preflop?

I think people get in this mode where they either have the lead, in which case they bet the next round, or they don't have the lead, in which case they check. This causes all kinds of weird suggestions like the idea that you must 3-bet because otherwise you are forced to check-fold an ace high flop. Huh? Why don't you just bet the flop??

-Eric

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm neither a high-stakes player nor a limit player, but (in addition to the fact that we're often ahead) don't we 3-bet preflop here to 1) get more action on our premium hands and 2) to make sure premium hands are in our range on this specific hand.

The reason calling preflop and donking a flop isn't as successful, IMHO, is because when we 3-bet preflop, bet the flop, our opponent has to include preflop monsters in our range, which are very likely to have our opponent wrecked on most flops.
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  #24  
Old 12-03-2005, 11:22 AM
gaming_mouse gaming_mouse is offline
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Default Re: 200/400 bellagio vs v good player

A general question about this comment:

[ QUOTE ]
The villain in the hand is terry...a local woman who IMO is the best player at the table(and i'm either 2nd or a close third...so it's a decent game for 2 and 4).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm curious what made you feel that she was better than you, and how long you'd been playing with her before you decided this? Is this a player you know extremely well, or do you make evaluations like this after, say, she makes one or two creative moves that are clearly correct and that you would not have made yourself?
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  #25  
Old 12-03-2005, 01:18 PM
PokerPrince PokerPrince is offline
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Default Re: 200/400 bellagio vs v good player

Great seinfeld quote for your location Gaming Mouse, lol.
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  #26  
Old 12-03-2005, 01:31 PM
Tommy Angelo Tommy Angelo is offline
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Default Re: 200/400 bellagio vs v good player

I like the way you played it, and your afterthoughts.

As to metagame, the only reason I could see for NOT playing it the way you did (I'm thinking mainly about your reraise on the turn, not the preflop reraise) is that if your hand gets shown down, it might get this particular opponent to start coming at you a little harder, a little more often. Or maybe even a lot harder, a lot more often. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing in your world. I don't know. But it is something you had a large amount of control over. If you two had evolved a non-spoken non-interference pact, it likely evolved because it was to your mutual benefit. In that case, this hand would/could be seen as a treaty-breaker. Then the blood flows, which is fine, as long as it's not yours!

As to what I would have done, well, I live a much simpler life than you do.

"The villain in the hand ... is the best player at the table."

I would have kept the peace by folding before the flop.

Tommy
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  #27  
Old 12-03-2005, 02:32 PM
DcifrThs DcifrThs is offline
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Default Re: 200/400 bellagio vs v good player

keep posting these 2/4 hands.

im putting myself in her shoes and thinking what id need to have to a) raise the turn, b) call your 3 bet, c) 4bet the turn, d) call the river after the 3bet.

i think preflop is a side note in this hand although it plays into the above requirements. 3betting here isn't bad and needs to be done occasionally. personally id be more likely to call a bit more often than is probably optimal as is my style in the bb OOP. your play here is fine.

first question: did you plan on bet/3betting after she raised the flop (and the turn comes favorable)? (did you have a read on her?)

if so, what did you put her on at that point b/c i think there's a decent chance you're beat right now if this hand got to the river. the only hands that match my questions above about continuing past the turn 3 bet are those hands that contain a pair+flush draw, flush draw, overpair+flush draw, very aggressively played AA/KK no spade, a made flush, or an outlandish bluff. this last part is important to consider b/c when good players who haven't gotten HU before but know each other knows each other, there could be a propensity for attempt to outplay/overplay certain holdings as the player thinks that the other player will give more respect and recognizing times to win pots like this at these limits is a huge coup. still, id say its a fairly large unlikelihood at the point she raises the turn.

what i think is great about the turn 3 bet is that she now has to call all pair + spade hands but is not happy about it. the problem is if the hand continues the hands you beat are ones that are drawing to Qs/Js and have the jack or the As and has the 8. i dont think she has TT here ever really.

if i played this hand id probably call the turn and call a non spade river and bet a spade river.

which brings us to the river which, if it got there, is im sure interesting after the turn 3bet. if she calls the turn 3bet and it blanks off i think you need to bet. but if you get called, damn, its close to being a check on the river. the reasont eh 3bet on the turn is good is the same reason why a check on the river is good: she has to call the 3 bet w/ spades on the turn but now can't call the river.

anyways, im sorry i can't give a more clear cut response.

Barron
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  #28  
Old 12-03-2005, 07:12 PM
elindauer elindauer is offline
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Default Re: 200/400 bellagio vs v good player

[ QUOTE ]
when we 3-bet preflop, bet the flop, our opponent has to include preflop monsters in our range...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're making the assumption that we never just call and donk the flop with premium hands, or call and check-raise the flop with these hands. I would argue that you in fact should be doing this a lot.

-Eric
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  #29  
Old 12-03-2005, 07:14 PM
elindauer elindauer is offline
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Default Re: 200/400 bellagio vs v good player

[ QUOTE ]
IMO it is much easier to get them to fold (a) a better hand or (b) a hand with odds to draw if you take this "initiative" thingy.

[/ QUOTE ]

The bigger the pot, the more she should be inclined to call down. If just calling and betting the flop results in her always getting stubborn, then you should simply start doing it with your premium hands as well as those times you catch the flop. You'll crush her heads up this way.

-Eric
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  #30  
Old 12-03-2005, 07:16 PM
elindauer elindauer is offline
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Default Re: 200/400 bellagio vs v good player

[ QUOTE ]
Because when you donkbet the flop, people never trust it. So a better hand never folds, because your flop bet looks weird to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you don't see how easily exploitable this is then you are not trying very hard. Simply stop 3-betting all your big hands preflop. Donk the flop. Also, whenever you do catch the flop, donk into the pfr.

After badly misplaying you for a while and giving you way too much action, they'll start to change strategies. Now you can begin playing the KJ this way.

-Eric
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