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  #1  
Old 11-20-2005, 06:10 PM
BluffTHIS! BluffTHIS! is offline
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Default Pascal\'s Wager and Free Bets

Pascal's Wager has been discussed here numerous times, and I'm not going to rehash it. I have however stated that I believe it is a legitimate wager, and that although there are some rational critiques that some proponents of it don't consider, that it nonetheless holds up. Also as most of you will know, I assert christian catholic positions that are much more "lenient" than those held by more fundamentalist christians or fundamentalists of other major religions even. Thus I believe that those who either have never heard the gospel preached, or even having heard, still sincerely do not believe in it, can yet have the possibility of being saved. Again I have discussed how this can be so in previous threads and will not repeat same here.

Thus by my views, you can essentially get a free bet at this wager, although some minimal restrictions would apply, such as following the golden rule, including regarding omission versus commission. Even if you view such minimal "fine print" as a price somehow, you nonetheless still are getting a bet with ultimate payoff potential for nowhere near the correct price of that bet. That is if you consider not doing bad to others a price to be paid.

However, I believe that such an essentially free bet can be lost. Not by, even passionatley advocated, intellectually honest views against religion, but by strident ridicule and mockery of that religion and its beliefs and supreme being. Now this does not mean I think that respect and consideration should be accorded to every religious system, because I don't. If one of the super super longshots like one of the wacko personality cults or scientology comes in, then I am screwed for sure because I have in the past and will continue to mock such systems based upon the most preposterous of premises. But regarding the major religions with long histories, which means that over hundreds and thousands of years at least some very smart people have held such beliefs, then I believe it is not only considerate of the beliefs of others, but also smart not to mock such views very earnestly even if you believe the probability of their being true is extremely small.

Posters here like David and andy, except for the occasional sarcastic remark, have presented atheist and agnostic viewpoints based on evidentiary and logical arguements without resorting to such grossly mocking jibes. But many here have. And I think that is esentially like being given a free lottery ticket and tearing it up and throwing it down and spitting on it. Will the lottery chief have sympathy for such a person if that number comes in and offer to replace it? Not likely.

So even if you think there is no way that the God of Christianity or another major religion exists, you still don't have to mock Him. And if you say something along the lines of, "I'd rather burn in hell than believe in a god who would punish people in hell", then you just might get your druthers.

Good gamblers don't pass up free bets no matter how long the odds, especially when the potential payoff is huge.
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  #2  
Old 11-20-2005, 06:16 PM
maurile maurile is offline
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Default Re: Pascal\'s Wager and Free Bets

[ QUOTE ]
So even if you think there is no way that the God of Christianity or another major religion exists, you still don't have to mock Him.

[/ QUOTE ]
You seem to be assuming that mocking God isn't the exclusive means to get into heaven. There is, however, no evidence that it isn't.
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  #3  
Old 11-20-2005, 06:24 PM
tomdemaine tomdemaine is offline
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Default Re: Pascal\'s Wager and Free Bets

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So even if you think there is no way that the God of Christianity or another major religion exists, you still don't have to mock Him.

[/ QUOTE ]
You seem to be assuming that mocking God isn't the exclusive means to get into heaven. There is, however, no evidence that it isn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, if I was God I wouldn't want a bunch of toadying yes men around me for eternity.
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  #4  
Old 11-20-2005, 06:31 PM
Lestat Lestat is offline
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Default Re: Pascal\'s Wager and Free Bets

<font color="blue"> If one of the super super longshots like one of the wacko personality cults or scientology comes in, then I am screwed for sure because I have in the past and will continue to mock such systems based upon the most preposterous of premises. </font>

Doesn't this answer your question?
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  #5  
Old 11-20-2005, 07:05 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: Pascal\'s Wager and Free Bets

I'm guilty of sometimes mocking, I try to avoid it but be assured its not god that is being mocked.

chez
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  #6  
Old 11-20-2005, 07:29 PM
atrifix atrifix is offline
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Default Re: Pascal\'s Wager and Free Bets

[ QUOTE ]
If one of the super super longshots like one of the wacko personality cults or scientology comes in, then I am screwed for sure because I have in the past and will continue to mock such systems based upon the most preposterous of premises.

[/ QUOTE ]

How, exactly, did you determine that these were "super super long shots" and had "the most preposterous of premises"?

[ QUOTE ]
but also smart not to mock such views very earnestly even if you believe the probability of their being true is extremely small.

[/ QUOTE ]

How does this differ from scientology? Why shouldn't God send atheists to heaven?

You don't have to rehash your arguments; some links would be fine.
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  #7  
Old 11-20-2005, 07:35 PM
Double Down Double Down is offline
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Default Re: Pascal\'s Wager and Free Bets

When I mock a religion, I am mocking the people who belong to the religion, not the God of the religion. I am putting them down for the fact that they have taken their religion to such extremes that they are misinterpreting its original intent and it leads them to be closed minded and irrational. I don't even believe that that type of God exists, so there's nothing to mock. It's the people that I get a kick out of.
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  #8  
Old 11-20-2005, 07:46 PM
PrayingMantis PrayingMantis is offline
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Default Re: Pascal\'s Wager and Free Bets

[ QUOTE ]
So even if you think there is no way that the God of Christianity or another major religion exists, you still don't have to mock Him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure if you refer to me too, but in any case, I certainly understand why a religious person can get offended by someone mocking god in his presence. However, this is not a "religious board". I would never dream of posting something that mocks god on a "religious board". Elsewhere, here included, I find it very natural for me (or others) to state their honest opinion about god and the idea of god or gods or religion in general. As far as I'm concerned (I know it is different with others) I don't find it particularly interesting or fruitful to "criticize" religion. But mocking religion or god is a different thing, and in a way, I feel that there's even some sort of obligation to mock god in particular and gods in gerenal.

Honestly, I can't see how you can be seriously offended or bothered by atheists mocking or despising god, in 2005. God was killed so long ago, by so many, mocking him now is in a way getting him back to life. You should be glad.

Regarding the "free bets":

[ QUOTE ]
Good gamblers don't pass up free bets no matter how long the odds, especially when the potential payoff is huge.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this whole perspective is completely illusory. This is my opinion. I have no problem with you or any other keeping to this illusion, if it makes you feel good. FWIW, I have many private illusions myself, but I am not trying to convince you that my illusions should apply to you as well.

This has nothing to do with being a good gambler. From my perspective, a good gambler doesn't waste big parts of his life on illusionary "long shots". Your talk about "being given a free lottery ticket" is gibberish to me. I have nothing to say for it or against it. For all I know, it's a "free ticket" to a lottery that exists only in your (and others') mind. Mocking this imagined lottery is a very natural thing to do.
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  #9  
Old 11-20-2005, 08:18 PM
J. Stew J. Stew is offline
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Default Re: Pascal\'s Wager and Free Bets

I don't think you can hedge your bets in order to see heaven. Either you know what's up or you don't. Intellectual inquiry can point the way towards no intellectual inquiry or it can lead to more thinking. Either way, seeing is seeing and thinking is thinking. You can't see heaven if you think you see it, you'll be thinking.
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  #10  
Old 11-20-2005, 09:22 PM
David Sklansky David Sklansky is offline
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Default Re: Pascal\'s Wager and Free Bets

"So even if you think there is no way that the God of Christianity or another major religion exists, you still don't have to mock Him. And if you say something along the lines of, "I'd rather burn in hell than believe in a god who would punish people in hell", then you just might get your druthers."

These are two very different things. I agree with the first sentence. But the quote in the second sentence, while an obvious exaggeration, is a legitmate philosophical stance that could conceivably even please God.
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