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  #1  
Old 10-13-2005, 11:55 AM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default absolute morality - relative morality = 0 ?

I (and I assume the same for most other people) have moral feelings that change with my understanding of the situation.

Suppose there is an absolute morality. How could I do better than follow the guide of my moral feelings?

If god then, as I've already wittered on about at length, my moral feelings are the best possible guide to absolute right/wrong.

If no god, then either I have no understanding of this moral absoluteness in which case my feelings are as good a guide as any or I understand this moral absoluteness.

If I understand this non-god moral absoluteness then is it possible that my feelings wouldn't mirror it? It seems nonsense to say I understand that something is wrong but I feel it is right.

Conclusion. If there is an absolute morality I can do no better than follow the guide of my moral feelings.

chez
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  #2  
Old 10-13-2005, 08:09 PM
DougShrapnel DougShrapnel is offline
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Default Re: absolute morality - relative morality = 0 ?

[ QUOTE ]
I (and I assume the same for most other people) have moral feelings that change with my understanding of the situation.

Suppose there is an absolute morality. How could I do better than follow the guide of my moral feelings?

If god then, as I've already wittered on about at length, my moral feelings are the best possible guide to absolute right/wrong.

If no god, then either I have no understanding of this moral absoluteness in which case my feelings are as good a guide as any or I understand this moral absoluteness.

If I understand this non-god moral absoluteness then is it possible that my feelings wouldn't mirror it? It seems nonsense to say I understand that something is wrong but I feel it is right.

Conclusion. If there is an absolute morality I can do no better than follow the guide of my moral feelings.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]Could you run this by me again without god?
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  #3  
Old 10-13-2005, 08:29 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: absolute morality - relative morality = 0 ?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I (and I assume the same for most other people) have moral feelings that change with my understanding of the situation.

Suppose there is an absolute morality. How could I do better than follow the guide of my moral feelings?

If god then, as I've already wittered on about at length, my moral feelings are the best possible guide to absolute right/wrong.

If no god, then either I have no understanding of this moral absoluteness in which case my feelings are as good a guide as any or I understand this moral absoluteness.

If I understand this non-god moral absoluteness then is it possible that my feelings wouldn't mirror it? It seems nonsense to say I understand that something is wrong but I feel it is right.

Conclusion. If there is an absolute morality I can do no better than follow the guide of my moral feelings.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]Could you run this by me again without god?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have a go.

Suppose there is an absolute right/wrong i.e. in any specific situation there is a correct moral action.

Suppose also that I have moral feelings that are informed by my understanding of the world. (I take this to be true - it seems to be how it works)

If I want to be moral then can I do better than follow my moral feelings?

I'm not sure the answer is no but I think it may be. What do you think?

chez
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  #4  
Old 10-13-2005, 08:57 PM
DougShrapnel DougShrapnel is offline
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Default Re: absolute morality - relative morality = 0 ?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I (and I assume the same for most other people) have moral feelings that change with my understanding of the situation.

Suppose there is an absolute morality. How could I do better than follow the guide of my moral feelings?

If god then, as I've already wittered on about at length, my moral feelings are the best possible guide to absolute right/wrong.

If no god, then either I have no understanding of this moral absoluteness in which case my feelings are as good a guide as any or I understand this moral absoluteness.

If I understand this non-god moral absoluteness then is it possible that my feelings wouldn't mirror it? It seems nonsense to say I understand that something is wrong but I feel it is right.

Conclusion. If there is an absolute morality I can do no better than follow the guide of my moral feelings.

chez

[/ QUOTE ]Could you run this by me again without god?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have a go.

Suppose there is an absolute right/wrong i.e. in any specific situation there is a correct moral action.

Suppose also that I have moral feelings that are informed by my understanding of the world. (I take this to be true - it seems to be how it works)

If I want to be moral then can I do better than follow my moral feelings?

I'm not sure the answer is no but I think it may be. What do you think?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]Is it possible to cut out your moral feelings in the conclusion.

Suppose there is an absolute right/wrong i.e. in any specific situation there is a correct moral action.

Suppose also that I have moral feelings that are informed by my understanding of the world. (I take this to be true - it seems to be how it works)

If I want to be moral then can I do better than follow my understanding of the world, or gain more understanding of the world?

A limitation of these thoughts is that my moral correctness can only be as good as my understanding of the world.
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  #5  
Old 10-13-2005, 09:12 PM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: absolute morality - relative morality = 0 ?

Without the god otion, I think you're right and I can just talk about understanding.

[ QUOTE ]
A limitation of these thoughts is that my moral correctness can only be as good as my understanding of the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats more or less the conclusion I want to reach. If its true than how could I do better, in any situation, then go with my current understanding?

I may get it wrong but as that's due to my lack of understanding, how could I do better?

chez
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  #6  
Old 10-14-2005, 02:52 AM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: absolute morality - relative morality = 0 ?

There is at least one case when I need to use feelings not understanding, the case where someone claims there is no understanding.

So the conclusion I think maybe correct is:

Even if there is an absolute morality then, if I want to be moral, the best I can do in any situation is follow my moral feelings.

Anyone see a problem with this claim?

chez
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  #7  
Old 10-14-2005, 03:54 AM
J. Stew J. Stew is offline
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Default Re: absolute morality - relative morality = 0 ?

Who/What is it that is guiding you. Thoughts, but where do the thoughts come from?

After you let your morals guide you, did you feel as though you were reaching deeper truths? If yes, then wouldn't you already be on the path to moral absoluteness? And if you are on the path to moral absolutness now, when did you first walk on the path? When you learned your first truth, or did you always know what your morals were/are?

[ QUOTE ]
Conclusion. If there is an absolute morality I can do no better than follow the guide of my moral feelings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Following the truths in your head lead to truer relative truths, but ultimate truth, which manifests ultimate morality, is not a concept, which thoughts/guiding priniciples are.

- Jeff
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  #8  
Old 10-14-2005, 04:08 AM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2004
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Default Re: absolute morality - relative morality = 0 ?

[ QUOTE ]
Who/What is it that is guiding you. Thoughts, but where do the thoughts come from?

After you let your morals guide you, did you feel as though you were reaching deeper truths? If yes, then wouldn't you already be on the path to moral absoluteness? And if you are on the path to moral absolutness now, when did you first walk on the path? When you learned your first truth, or did you always know what your morals were/are?

[ QUOTE ]
Conclusion. If there is an absolute morality I can do no better than follow the guide of my moral feelings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Following the truths in your head lead to truer relative truths, but ultimate truth, which manifests ultimate morality, is not a concept, which thoughts/guiding priniciples are.

- Jeff

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm thinking it doesn't matter where the moral feelings come from. I'm not saying they are correct (assuming an absolute morality to make the concept of correctness valid).

The question I wondering about is, how can I do better, in any situation, than trust my moral feelings? Assume the feeling may be misleading, then what can I do that is better?

chez
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  #9  
Old 10-14-2005, 04:12 AM
imported_luckyme imported_luckyme is offline
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Default Re: absolute morality - relative morality = 0 ?

[ QUOTE ]

Even if there is an absolute morality then, if I want to be moral, the best I can do in any situation is follow my moral feelings.

Anyone see a problem with this claim?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps, because if there were an absolute morality then it would be able to be followed. Your solution seems to deal with psuedo absolute morality. The problem stems from our tendency to believe what we can say. The fact we can create a structurally correct sentence doesn't mean it relates to anything in reality. "This sentence is false" for example, or 'god could create absolute morality'.

Since no two situations are the same, we'd need an infinite set of absolute morals which are merely relative morality in drag. That agrees with your thread subject but for different reasons.

Here's a list of absolutes that our local god tried to create -
You must not go over 60mph.
You must be out of town by 9pm.
You must not drive on the sidewalk.

I have a flat, the only way I can get out of town by 9 is to either speed or drive across the sidewalk. Is there a hierarchy of morals? is it worse to be still here at 9:10 or to cross a sidewalk? what about my choices that are later/faster/moresidewalking.

We see that played out in our attempt to deal with a "no killing" moral. There are infinite scenarios where one person kills another and there is no one who could write a code that deals with every possible variable so we could simply look up the 'absolute' moral stance in that circumstance even if they were given infinite time to write it ( and then what good would it do me).

So, you have suggested a solution to a conceptually flawed ( being polite) concept, and in a sense you have committed my calculators 'division by zero' error.

sorry if I've perverted your point, since I think you're very aware of the issue I'm raising with the concept of absolute morality but somebody may take the "if there were AM..' seriously and waste a lot of our time.

luckyme ..
... if I thought I was wrong, I'd change my mind
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  #10  
Old 10-14-2005, 04:26 AM
bholdr bholdr is offline
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Default Re: absolute morality - relative morality = 0 ?

'feelings'?! If there is an absolute morality, then it follows that it should be...

nevermind this is stupid.

read Kant's 'critique of pure reason' and then get back to me. the basic idea about morality: the universal moral law can be deduced and studied logically like any other natural science. he explains much better than i can. nevermind.
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