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  #21  
Old 09-22-2005, 01:54 AM
NotReady NotReady is offline
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Default Re: A problem with some religous views

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I'm struggling a bit with your repsonse. As far as I can tell you agree the argument is logically valid but disagree that the statement reflects your religious view - is that correct?


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The various premises can be stated as follows:

1. All mankind is guilty because of sin.
2. God is just.
3. Justice requires punishment.
4. God will, in justice, punish the guilty because of sin.

You conclude that God is immoral. Therefore you disagree with 2 and/or 4. Either He is not just (which basically redefines God) or God will not punish. You could also disagree with 1, but that doesn't seem to be your approach.

We could also look at premise 2 as the conclusion of another set of premises.

1a. God is perfect in all His attributes.
2a. Perfect justice requires punishment for sin.
3a. God will punish sin.
4a. Therefore: God is just.

You could now question 2a. Then we get into trying to define justice. At some point there will be a fundamental disagreement about a premise. I get my premises from Scripture. You are contesting the premises. You are stating either that God is not just or that justice doesn't require punishment. As to not punishing, that also doesn't seem to be your approach.

That leaves you questioning God's justice. Again, not an issue of logical reasoning but premises. So where do you get your premises? You refer to your moral sense. Let's assume you mean your standard of morality, which either you invented or refer to from someone else. Either way, you set this standard above God and judge Him by it. That means that God can't be absolute, but must Himself refer to a standard outside and above Himself. That means He isn't really God. Do you see that if the God of the Bible exists and is Who it says He is (and the goodness and justice of God are repeated throughout the Bible), that His Word about morality is right? If you deny this then you are just setting yourself up as God's judge. The Bible is also very clear about who will win this debate.

There is another important point. I believe that the character of God will be vindicated in the end. He is not a despot Who simply enforces whatever He wants in a capricious or evil way. His goodness and justice are not foreign to us. What we think about those concepts applies to God. But there is much more to Him than just our flawed idea. He is perfect in all His attributes and they all work together. All of His judgments are in accordance with His character and He is light, goodness, love and justice. There are many horrible things that have happened in the world and will continue to happen. The last judgment, whatever it is, will not be pleasant for unbelievers. None of us Christians like the suffering we see or that which will come. We also believe God doesn't like it either but has decided to allow it because somehow it's better than not. The only way to accept this in the face of "the horror, the horror" is through trust in Him.

One other point on God's justice. The Bible says that in Christ God is "Just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Christ". God's justice is satisfied for those who believe because Christ gave Himself as a sacrifice. "He bore our sins in His own body on the tree". So it isn't unjust for God to declare unjust sinners to be justified because the penalty was paid by Christ. God's love is satisfied because He has provided the sacrifice for us, the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world. "He shows His love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us".
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  #22  
Old 09-22-2005, 02:01 AM
RJT RJT is offline
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Default Re: A problem with some religous views

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If any religion claims this then your logic seems to flows (almost). You are stating that you have a problem with said religions. You are saying said religions exist. You say at the end “…or that religious view is mistaken”. If indeed there is such a religion , the religious view isn’t mistaken per se - it is just a view that you don‘t agree with. It might indeed be a mistaken view as far as what is the True religion. But, I am not sure that point is clear as written. So, I think this part needs ammended.

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If nothing else I am learning something because I thought this statement was accurate about some religous views.

Hpowever, nowhere in the argument do I assume that such religons exist. Sorry if what I said was misleading.

The (hopefully more clear) argument is that if I find a religon that subscribes to the view in that statement, then because I find the god of that religon morally repugnant then either my morality misleads me, god isn't good or the religon is mistaken.

Logically valid and do you agree with conclusion. If not, why not?

Thanks

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

This sounds more like what you seem to want to say. It is what I think you should say, if that means anything.
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  #23  
Old 09-22-2005, 02:05 AM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: A problem with some religous views

That is not my argument.

The premise is:

1. My moral sense tells me that a god that enforces the given statement is repugnant.

The argument is:

If 1. is true then either my moral sense misleads me, god is not good, or any religon that subscribes to the view in the statement is mistaken.

Thats the whole argument. I will go on to claim more but need to start somewhere, have I got anything wrong so far?

chez
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  #24  
Old 09-22-2005, 02:17 AM
RJT RJT is offline
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Default Re: A problem with some religous views

[ QUOTE ]
That is not my argument.

The premise is:

1. My moral sense tells me that a god that enforces the given statement is repugnant.

The argument is:

If 1. is true then either my moral sense misleads me, god is not good, or any religon that subscribes to the view in the statement is mistaken.

Thats the whole argument. I will go on to claim more but need to start somewhere, have I got anything wrong so far?

chez

[/ QUOTE ]

chez,

This sounds good. I have to get some sleep. But I want to leave you with some ideas (David S. touched upon these quite a bit actually) :

What about the baby in Africa who just died form AIDS at 4 days old? Or the Buddhist monk who never heard of Jesus? Or your own gift to us The Who’s Tommy? My God will be harsher on me who does believe than these examples?

RJT
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  #25  
Old 09-22-2005, 03:24 AM
NotReady NotReady is offline
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Default Re: A problem with some religous views

You have two numbered as 1.

The first:

[ QUOTE ]

1. My moral sense tells me that a god that enforces the given statement is repugnant.


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is just a statement of your moral code.

The second number 1. :

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If 1. is true then either my moral sense misleads me, god is not good, or any religon that subscribes to the view in the statement is mistaken.


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combines the premise of the first number 1 and implicitly adds the premises I stated.

Your logic is not necessarly wrong but it is stated in a confused way, which is why I tried to rearrange it.

Ignoring my attempt at formal logic, what I said in my other post still applies.

I'm also not sure what you mean when you say:

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If 1. is true then either my moral sense misleads me


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Do you mean it is true that your moral sense tells you this or

Do you mean your moral sense is true and God would be immoral if He punished sinners?
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  #26  
Old 09-22-2005, 03:24 AM
siegfriedandroy siegfriedandroy is offline
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Default Re: A problem with some religous views

i would argue that your 'moral sense' is meaningless if you believe atheism is true. if your 'moral sense' is legitimate, then there must be an absolute moral standard. an absolute moral standard, as Sklansky can attest to (dont know why im appealing to sklansky!), is inconsistent with a godless universe.
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  #27  
Old 09-22-2005, 03:28 AM
siegfriedandroy siegfriedandroy is offline
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Default Re: A problem with some religous views

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The argument is fine but not particularly helpful. Almost everybody already knows that Not Ready is wrong about this stuff, including the vast majority of highly religious people and deep down, including Not Ready himself. There are bigger fish to fry.

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The argument is invalid and not particularly helpful. Almost everybody knows that Sklansky is wrong about this stuff, including the vast majority of highly secular people, and deep down, including Sklansky himself, who knows there must be some sort of 'God', but has rejected Him
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  #28  
Old 09-22-2005, 04:08 AM
DougShrapnel DougShrapnel is offline
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Default Re: A problem with some religous views

[ QUOTE ]
an absolute moral standard, as Sklansky can attest to (dont know why im appealing to sklansky!), is inconsistent with a godless universe.

[/ QUOTE ] It would appear that no only is an abosolute moral standard inconsistent in a godless universe, it also is inconsistent with a Godful one.

For instance. Not sure what commandment is thou shall not kill, but the old testament states that in times of self-defense, rightous war, and the commission of justice it is gods will for you to murder.
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  #29  
Old 09-22-2005, 04:59 AM
jester710 jester710 is offline
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Default Re: A problem with some religous views

[ QUOTE ]
Consider the statement:

"we are all guilty of sins, those who believe can get redemption and those who don't believe have no chance of redemption and will be punished"

The religons I have a problem with claim that this statement (or something similar) is true.

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Are you arguing against only the religions who have views such as these, or are you trying to argue against ALL religions? This doesn't necessarily affect your logic, I'm just curious as to what your ultimate intentions are. The way you phrased it, it sounds like you have a specific problem with Calvinism.

[ QUOTE ]
My moral sense tells me that a god who enforces this view is morally repugnant.

So either I am being deceived by my feelings of right and wrong, god isn't good, or that religous view is mistaken.

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The only logical problem I see has already been touched upon: the fact that you are assuming an absolute morality that both you and God are subject to, and can both appeal to. God could be subject to a completely different moral code than you are , in which case your moral code could quite rightly tell you that it is wrong, and God would still be good.

Also, there's the chance that all three of the possibilities you listed could be correct, as they are not mutually exclusive.
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  #30  
Old 09-22-2005, 07:02 AM
chezlaw chezlaw is offline
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Default Re: A problem with some religous views

[ QUOTE ]
i would argue that your 'moral sense' is meaningless if you believe atheism is true. if your 'moral sense' is legitimate, then there must be an absolute moral standard. an absolute moral standard, as Sklansky can attest to (dont know why im appealing to sklansky!), is inconsistent with a godless universe.

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My moral sense is a feeling and I definitely have feelings and they are real. Agreed they are massively less important if there is no god but either way they can mislead me.
In what way is the argument invalid. i.e how can the premise be true and the conclusion false.

If you feel the need I am happy for you to assume there is a god.

chez
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