Can someone explain 2/5 limit hold'em in Colorado for me???

[wdbaker]

What if the 2+2 Denver game was just .5/1.00 and after we play each hand we discuss it if any issues and use it as practice sessions, steal sharpens steal. Then when we go to the mountains, hell hath no fury like the sharpened steel of the Denver 2+2ers [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

What do ya think

One street at a time
wdbaker Denver, Co

[orbie]

I'll add your name to the list. Wiredpair

[rkiray]

There is no question that all the CO games are tough to beat, since people tip more in the CO 2/5 than the Mirage 10/20 game (it amazes me how many 50 cent tips i've seen at the Mirage, you can't do that at the Lodge). Now the 5/5 rake is up to 5 bucks a pop. I haven't been playing in Blackhawk much the last three months, since it takes me an hour to drive there, and it is so much easier to play on-line. Plus no tips, and much lower rake. I do think that the on-line players have gotten much tougher in the last year though. I think the biggest difference was when the government started cracking down on banks making it tougher to some credit cards and some of the internet fund transfer companies. This has made it tougher on alot of the fish to make impulse purchases. I do like the atmosphere in a B&M club and so I think I'll go up to the Lodge tomorrow afternoon.

[J.R.]

I can't imagine this is correct, as the rake at 5-5 is a far less of a percentage of the average pot than at 2-5, and the players are horrible. While the swings are bad, how can you not kill a game where a number of your opponents will cap with their "favorite" hand or any two suited cards quite often. The typical 5-5 is a very, very beatable game.

You will be amazed (and perhaps feel sick) when you watch some degnerates play this game. I have seen a fellow named "Ray", black ponytail, 40ish, ray-ban like sunglasses and a backpack lose 1300 in one session. Huh? It is scary, but the flip side is you can't help but make money against opponents like that.

[rharless]

I really have no idea. I've heard everything from it's easy to beat, to it's not possible over the long run. I've never run a sim myself, and I don't have any kind of feel for when the blinds plus the rake/etc would really overtake the profitability of a game.

I talked about this yesterday with a friend, and his theory is that since the blinds are so big, and the pots are so big, that even the worst players are not making significant mistakes by playing. The fewer and less severe mistakes that the bozos make, then the less advantage a good player has. But even then, he thinks 5-5 is still marginally beatable.

The only thing I know for sure is that I am still waiting to meet someone credible who has beat 5-5 over the course of several hundred hours. Of course as a 2-5 player, I don't meet many of the 5-5 crowd. I do know one guy who "claims" he won $8000 at 5-5 in one year, but in the three years since he has given it all back and then some and so he moved down to 2-5, where he is now winning agian.

That said, I did recommend 5-5 to a friend who plays far too loose and has ample bankroll. The reasoning was that at least he'd have pots to fund the odds for the trash he likes to play. So far he has been losing less, but it's only been six sessions so far, and in fact he had a couple nice wins. Whereas, at 2-5, it was a good night if he lost only $200.

If you told me you have won at 5-5 over several hundred hours, I would believe it, since you've made several posts on here that when I read them, rang true as a bell to me.

[J.R.]

It is true that you basically can't fold post-flop in a 5-5 game with any kind of hand, as the drawing odds are huge. However, your opponents can 1) be drawing dead when they call post-flop, 2) overplay their made hands (i.e. cap a K high flush on the river against the nut flush), and 3) play a hand in an over-all negative EV manner when they are still correctly calling post-flop, as in the case when they go 6 bets pre-flop with suited garbage, then catch the odds to draw to a runner-runner flush post-flop. In the third instance your opponents are making a huge EV mistake pre-flop, but once they put the money in the pot it is no longer theirs, so they are playing positive EV poker by chasing post-flop but in essence are only really hoping to re-coup part of the huge error they made pre-flop. Overall it is a losing play, but when veiwed from the post-flop perspective they are playing fairly correctly.

I usually only play Colorado live-action poker for fun on my way back from skiing as the internet is far more profitable and easier to access, and I don't have hundred of hours logged, but I am beating the 5-5 game over about 25 sessions (with LOTS of variance). I know my results are not statistically significant, but I think that one can theoretically establish that the game is beatable in the long run.

Good luck to you, and I hope to see you sometime, preferably at another table from mine. [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

[AmericanAirlines]

Hi RH,
A beautiful post to say the least.

I'm curious about something though.

Under Strategy you say:


"...As JR has said, suited cards go to crap, while big cards go up in value...."

And


"...Pot odds are definitely important, but with good table selection, you can get a 70%+ seeing the flop and don't have to worry too much about odds for your draws..."

Umm... suited cards are drawing hands in most cases, so doesn't this pull two ways at once?

One adjustment I was planning to make vrs. the structured game was to play for more draws.

So would it be safe to say... "When you can get in for $2 and there are plenty of callers, chase the draws."

Another point for discussion:

"...Invest $2 from any position with any pair..."

Seems to me small pairs are a 1 in 23 shot. Much worse than a one in 8 shot to flop a flush draw... but somewhat better than the approx 1 in 27 that you will complete your flush draw.

So, though I believe what you are saying, I'm having a hard time proving it to myself with mathematical analysis.

So let me know what you think.

Sincerely,
AA

[orbie]

I should be going up tommorow arriving at 11am and staying until 2pm when I have to head back for work. I'm going up with a friend who will be sitting for his first session of casino play.

Thanks ORBIE

[J.R.]

Seems to me small pairs are a 1 in 23 shot

Your odds to flop a set are about 7.5 to 1.

Calling just $2 pre-flop with the chance to bet $5 one each post-flop street means pocket pairs are profitable from just about wherever if the game is loose (limpers) and passive (only $2 to see the flop), which is typical of many 2-5 games.

[rharless]

<font color="brown"> "When you can get in for $2 and there are plenty of callers, chase the draws." </font color>

Yes, this is correct. You want at least 5-6 people in for only $2 to play your draws.

Because you can raise so much preflop (basically tripling the bet) and then bet so much on the flop, however, you want to play your big cards faster. Basically, give people opportunities to make mistakes with their drawing hands. I've only recently become so aware of how important this fact is, thanks to helpful posts by majorkong, Clarky, and JR. I used to just play with the basic preflop advice that was dispensed for structured games, and while that was successful for me, I have found that shifting gears this year based on their advice has been even better. I don't have enough of a sample size to draw a meaningful conclusion but it just "feels" like it's working.

<font color="brown"> Seems to me small pairs are a 1 in 23 shot </font color>

That would be correct odds if the flop was only one card [img]/forums/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]. Your odds of flopping a set are roughly the same as your odds of flopping a flush draw.

When you flop a set, you will win (much) more often than you lose.

When you flop a flush draw, you will lose more often than you win.

A hand from tonight, only slightly relevant but a good excuse for me to tell the story. I raise with QQ preflop, get two callers. I flop a set. Flush card hits the turn. River paired the board. Both of my opponents have the flush (T9s, 54s). One of the guys was a big ole baby about it: kept moaning "that was such a bad beat" etc.

The dealer said to him "yeah I really hate it when my 5-4 suited gets run down by pocket queens." [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]