Two Pair

bluewilde · #1 08-06-2005, 01:43 PM

Hate making a vague general post, but I think the situation is clear enough that I can get some solid feedback. As far as flopping sets goes, general wisdom is "Bet, and then bet some more." Certainly this depends on flop texture, but what interests me is the fact that you're not supposed to worry about a higher set. But what about flopping two-pair? Recently I find myself betting two-pair heavily only to see a higher two pair. Early on when I asked about a two-pair hand one poster replied, "When I hit two-pair I generally close my eyes and push." Is this not good advice? Two-pair isn't invulnerable (i.e. no slow playing), but it's usually wrong to fold as well. Top pair and overpairs give you sooo much action. So betting hard has worked, but recent hickups have caused me ask the quesiton. Perhaps you only really go hard with top two? Any thoughts as to how you play two-pair on safe flops? I'm happy to dig out a HH if that helps.

KramerTM · #2 08-06-2005, 02:01 PM

I play 2 pairs that aren't top two even harder than top 2. People don't realize that when you're playing top and bottom against TPTK, your opponent has more outs than hitting his kicker. The board can pair higher than your bottom pair, counterfeiting your 2 pair and giving your opponent the best hand. Slowplaying top and bottom pair is suicide unless you have a solid read on your opponenet and know he will bet so you can check-raise.

That said, I see nothing wrong with slowplaying top two, given that the flop does not contain any perilous draws.

I don't like, however, shoving your entire stack into the pot (if it's a gross overbet) when you hit 2 weak pairs on the flop. Unless you're at a low buy-in level, I think you're setting up to get called by better hands too often to make this a porofitable move.

Nottom · #3 08-06-2005, 02:17 PM

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I don't like, however, shoving your entire stack into the pot (if it's a gross overbet) when you hit 2 weak pairs on the flop. Unless you're at a low buy-in level, I think you're setting up to get called by better hands too often to make this a porofitable move.

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Even though it isn't ideal, pushing with smaller 2 pairs is almost certainly profitable only becasue people so rarely have you beat and you do get called by worse hands a significant portion of the time.

Its basically like pushing preflop with JJ early. Its probably a slightly +EV move overall, its just not nearly as good as playing it normally.

Nottom · #4 08-06-2005, 02:21 PM

Just the factt hat you realize two pair less than top two isn't really the big hand many people think it is shows you are on the right track. I wouldn't go so far as just pushing with it becasue its still a hand that can stand some action. But I tend to treat small two pair more like a TPTK type hand than a set (which is basically how I treat top two).

You wouldn't open push with AQ when you flop a Q ... no reason to play two pair like that either.

KramerTM · #5 08-06-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like, however, shoving your entire stack into the pot (if it's a gross overbet) when you hit 2 weak pairs on the flop. Unless you're at a low buy-in level, I think you're setting up to get called by better hands too often to make this a porofitable move.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even though it isn't ideal, pushing with smaller 2 pairs is almost certainly profitable only becasue people so rarely have you beat and you do get called by worse hands a significant portion of the time.

Its basically like pushing preflop with JJ early. Its probably a slightly +EV move overall, its just not nearly as good as playing it normally.

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Highly depends on what we mean by pushing. If pushing is shoving 760 chips into a 60 chip pot, I can gurantee it's -EV. If pushing is shoving 400 into a 200 pot, then I agree.

Nottom · #6 08-06-2005, 02:29 PM

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Highly depends on what we mean by pushing. If pushing is shoving 760 chips into a 60 chip pot, I can gurantee it's -EV. If pushing is shoving 400 into a 200 pot, then I agree.

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Honestly I think you get called by worse hands enough to make it slightly profitable in all but the very worst spots. I'd honestly say I think pushing 760 with bottom 2 on an average flop for 760 into a 60 pot is probably +EV on party, maybe not if you are pushing 1000.

I could be wrong, but I'd be willing to bet I wasn't if I had any way of proving it.

jgunnip · #7 08-06-2005, 03:28 PM

For me it depends on how many people are in the hand. Usually if I think there's a good chance of a bet after me I'll go for a check raise. If not I'll lead out with a 1/2 pot bet or more. Of course the strength of your two pair matters and sometimes it'll be better to simply call down and see a cheap river.