Playing in a tough game, anyone like this line?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I like it. I think when it looks like someone is trying to push you off your hand, they often are. Good players will make moves like these. Sometimes you have to make deceptive plays and then just go with them. And in this case, as you said, even if you are completely wrong and he shows you top set, you still have 8 outs. Not a terrible pot to be in.

[jonnyUCB]

I believed my tens were the best hand preflop. I pinned his raise (in this very aggressive game against a very aggresssive player) as a steal to pick up weak limps. He overbets the pot preflop (raises more than double) - I call.

What part of this flop could I possibly have hit, given my preflop limp? Will he play AA this fast on the flop when chances are I hit NOTHING and had NOTHING to begin with?

Perhaps, but on this uncoordinated board, it looks so much like a continuation bet on the flop trying to play off a miss and/or fold a pair. The board is not coordinated, there are very few hands that hit this hard. The worst he could be up against is a straight draw (TQ) or a pair with a kicker which could pair.

We still could be dealing with an overpair, though the preflop action reeks of steal. How weak does my preflop limp seem? Flop bet does seem like overpair though.

I see no value in raising here with my hand on the flop. I want him to continue his steal or define his hand so I can get away. My raise would look extremely weak short of bumping it 200 in this game... at which point, I've invested way too much when I could release it on the turn easily. I think your idea of raising to get info is much worse than calling and utilizing position.

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I'm curious to know, when you called his turn all-in, what possible hands do you put him on (obviously these would be hands you beat considering you called)?

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To be honest, a cold, hard, steal, which a very aggressive player is capable of. Honesttly I just saw no reason for him to overbet the pot, holding an overpair, with his image... he would get plenty of action with his overpair short of pushing in here. In fact, he would get no action by pushing in here against most (90%) players. Also, he probably doesn't realize I know his image, so more psychology goes into my decision than "he raised pre, he must have a big hand".

Let me ask you, what range of hands pushes the turn here? This is a pot-sized overbet, keep in mind. This is folding everything but the very best hands that hit the flop (including the straight which just hit), why would he want that? Is this some tourney-esque way of protecting an overpair from TJ or something?

He doesn't expect me to call with one pair (he doesn't know I know he's a LAG.. I could see him thinking I would muster a call after he had showed some bluffs but no way when I'm about 2 orbits fresh onto the table), so why would he bet this way with one pair? Did he hit a set?

Something about the turn overbet just DOESNT fit with the picture, given the amount of weakness I've shown by limping preflop and calling on the flop (though I'll disagree with you and say that it's equivalent to raising in a lot of senses).

Will post results soon.

[jonnyUCB]

Thanks.. I hope I'm just not going insane here.

Would you mind taking a look at my reasoning in my response to Godfather's post? My logic is probably flawed, but there was just something about the turn overbet made it so easy to call, in my mind.

[JaBlue]

I like it. He is probably doing this with pretty much anything (hands that beat you included). As TWP pointed out, even if you're wrong you still have 8 outs in almost all scenarios.

[Godfather80]

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I believed my tens were the best hand preflop. I pinned his raise (in this very aggressive game against a very aggresssive player) as a steal to pick up weak limps. He overbets the pot preflop (raises more than double) - I call.

What part of this flop could I possibly have hit, given my preflop limp? Will he play AA this fast on the flop when chances are I hit NOTHING and had NOTHING to begin with?

Perhaps, but on this uncoordinated board, it looks so much like a continuation bet on the flop trying to play off a miss and/or fold a pair. The board is not coordinated, there are very few hands that hit this hard. The worst he could be up against is a straight draw (TQ) or a pair with a kicker which could pair.

We still could be dealing with an overpair, though the preflop action reeks of steal. How weak does my preflop limp seem? Flop bet does seem like overpair though.

I see no value in raising here with my hand on the flop. I want him to continue his steal or define his hand so I can get away. My raise would look extremely weak short of bumping it 200 in this game... at which point, I've invested way too much when I could release it on the turn easily. I think your idea of raising to get info is much worse than calling and utilizing position.

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I'm curious to know, when you called his turn all-in, what possible hands do you put him on (obviously these would be hands you beat considering you called)?

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To be honest, a cold, hard, steal, which a very aggressive player is capable of. Honesttly I just saw no reason for him to overbet the pot, holding an overpair, with his image... he would get plenty of action with his overpair short of pushing in here. In fact, he would get no action by pushing in here against most (90%) players. Also, he probably doesn't realize I know his image, so more psychology goes into my decision than "he raised pre, he must have a big hand".

Let me ask you, what range of hands pushes the turn here? This is a pot-sized overbet, keep in mind. This is folding everything but the very best hands that hit the flop (including the straight which just hit), why would he want that? Is this some tourney-esque way of protecting an overpair from TJ or something?

He doesn't expect me to call with one pair (he doesn't know I know he's a LAG.. I could see him thinking I would muster a call after he had showed some bluffs but no way when I'm about 2 orbits fresh onto the table), so why would he bet this way with one pair? Did he hit a set?

Something about the turn overbet just DOESNT fit with the picture, given the amount of weakness I've shown by limping preflop and calling on the flop (though I'll disagree with you and say that it's equivalent to raising in a lot of senses).

Will post results soon.

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Thanks for taking the time to respond to my post. I have one remaining question which is: if you felt that your tens were the best hand preflop, but a vulnerable best hand because of the possibility overcards flopping, why not simply reraise preflop and take the hand now?

[TheWorstPlayer]

I like your thought process. Mine would probably have been simpler: My preflop play screams small/mid pair. If he has a real hand, he should be worried about a set and thinking about laying it down. So if he is pushing this hard, he has one of two hands: 1.a big pair that he pushed really hard preflop so that he could just go pedal to the metal postflop and know that you didn't really get good odds preflop or 2.a complete steal that he is just trying to push down my throat.

There is probably enough chance here of number 2, given what you say (although I don't know the player at all personally), for you to call even if you are drawing very slim in scenario 1. However, in this case, where you likely have 10 outs even if it is scenario 1, or at least 8, then I think it makes it a very good call.

[BZ_Zorro]

Question: Would you call the all in with T9o?

[jonnyUCB]

Set a trap. This is a 6-max game, where I cant wait for AA to pull this move. Also, with his holding, he might have reraised (pushed pre), or called and outplayed me on the flop (quite easily having defined my hand).

Also, in the OP I stated i wanted to play a big pot where I would not be read, and I would be able to read him. I thought I accomplished that by reading his reaction to my weak-ness. If i reraised, I would distort his read and then distort mine by overrepresenting my hand.

[jonnyUCB]

I would fold preflop, to his raise, or possibly not limped at all. If i had gotten to the flop, knowing what I knew, probably.

I wanted him to make a move thinking i was weak with no hand - one pair was good enough to cash in against this lag.

[Godfather80]

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Will post results soon.

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I remain very curious.