Playing in a tough game, anyone like this line?

jonnyUCB · #1 07-14-2005, 06:40 PM

At this particular table are a couple of regulars from 200NL/400NL (TAG for the most part), an unknown, and Luckyliu, a player who has been at the top of the Pokerstars Tournament Leader Board more than a couple of times.

Earlier, in a full game we were both playing in, he pocketed 300BBs after correctly calling down with an 88 overpair in a raised pot, and called down with pair of aces, 6 sicker in uncanny fashion. He also limped in every pot for about 3 orbits in that game, demonstrating (at least to me) an excellent ability to read players, as well as a LAGy tendency.

I took my seat when my turn was called, assuming already there was very little I could do to outplay him. From observing the game while waiting I noticed every pot was raised before the flop, liu playing very fast and aggressive. It would be hard to read him and my cards would be near transparent. From our play earlier he probably views me as TAG and a decent player.

I knew right away that to win I would have to play one BIG pot against him where HE would not be able to read my cards and make a mistake. Perhaps I made the mistake.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) converter

UTG ($603)
MP ($569.70)
Hero ($386)
SB ($75.65)
BB (luckyliu) ($650.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls $4, SB completes, BB (luckyliu) raises to $28, Hero calls $24, SB folds.

Flop: ($60) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
luckyliu bets $56, Hero calls $56.

Turn: ($172) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
luckyliu bets $566.7 (All-In), Hero calls $302 (All-In).

Final Pot: $1040.70

At worst I'm 20% to win and the strength of my hand is well disguised by the preflop limp. I hadn't seen enough of his play but his bets just seemed way out of line for a value bet.

Anyone like my line here? Did I get outright outplayed? Am I just playing scared poker?

amoeba · #2 07-14-2005, 07:07 PM

I think you got shown a set.

jonnyUCB · #3 07-14-2005, 08:27 PM

I agree that I thought I was ahead before the flop.

Against an unknown, is villian's line really the way to get paid off with a set? I called his flop bet easily and portrayed certainty. He would go allin (huge overbet) with a set (or even overpair) here? Coupled with my button limp preflop I called his turn bet even faster.

jonnyUCB · #4 07-15-2005, 01:13 PM

anyone ever USE this line? I thought the button limp was at least remotely interesting.

BZ_Zorro · #5 07-15-2005, 01:27 PM

I would have to think before calling that with jacks.

jonnyUCB · #6 07-15-2005, 01:34 PM

So theres no way you could see villian make a play here?

I want more analysis of the turn bet based on my preflop and flop actions. I mean, its friggin huge. What kinda value does he expect to be getting from my range of hands? I don't know it just seemed so obviously NOT a vb that i called instantly. Maybe im thinking the wrong way and the best way to play an overpair/set is push the flop or something.

BZ_Zorro · #7 07-15-2005, 01:46 PM

Possibly, but that's a hell of a bet when two straights became possible, and Villain isn't stupid if he's on the tournament leader board.

You don't even have top pair.

jonnyUCB · #8 07-15-2005, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Possibly, but that's a hell of a bet when two straights became possible

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly why I thought his bet was full of it. If he has a set, he would either be slightly worried by that card, or want more value from a donk calling down. He obviously doesn't expect me to call all-in with just one pair: what kind of value does his bet accomplish?

Maybe this is just a tournament-esque play of "protecting one's hand" that I've missed out on but I've never seen a push here with any hand looking for some value.

BZ_Zorro · #9 07-15-2005, 01:56 PM

Its value is that it looks like BS.

Godfather80 · #10 07-15-2005, 02:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
At this particular table are a couple of regulars from 200NL/400NL (TAG for the most part), an unknown, and Luckyliu, a player who has been at the top of the Pokerstars Tournament Leader Board more than a couple of times.

Earlier, in a full game we were both playing in, he pocketed 300BBs after correctly calling down with an 88 overpair in a raised pot, and called down with pair of aces, 6 sicker in uncanny fashion. He also limped in every pot for about 3 orbits in that game, demonstrating (at least to me) an excellent ability to read players, as well as a LAGy tendency.

I took my seat when my turn was called, assuming already there was very little I could do to outplay him. From observing the game while waiting I noticed every pot was raised before the flop, liu playing very fast and aggressive. It would be hard to read him and my cards would be near transparent. From our play earlier he probably views me as TAG and a decent player.

I knew right away that to win I would have to play one BIG pot against him where HE would not be able to read my cards and make a mistake. Perhaps I made the mistake.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (5 handed) converter

UTG ($603)
MP ($569.70)
Hero ($386)
SB ($75.65)
BB (luckyliu) ($650.70)

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls $4, SB completes, BB (luckyliu) raises to $28, Hero calls $24, SB folds.

Flop: ($60) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
luckyliu bets $56, Hero calls $56.

Turn: ($172) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
luckyliu bets $566.7 (All-In), Hero calls $302 (All-In).

Final Pot: $1040.70

At worst I'm 20% to win and the strength of my hand is well disguised by the preflop limp. I hadn't seen enough of his play but his bets just seemed way out of line for a value bet.

Anyone like my line here? Did I get outright outplayed? Am I just playing scared poker?

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple things:

First, I don't mind your deception preflop, but then aren't you mostly relegating yourself to playing TT for set value? When BB raises, I would have to abandon this line of play. You are then left with the job of figuring out whether he is raising with a hand that is better, worse, or a coinflip against yours. I see your preflop call as being fine, even though it tells you nothing about the strength of BB's hand. When BB makes a strong continuation bet on the flop, I think it is now time to define the hand with a raise if you actually believe you are ahead. By calling, you still know nothing about his hand strength.

I'm curious to know, when you called his turn all-in, what possible hands do you put him on (obviously these would be hands you beat considering you called)? I can really only come up with one that fits the BB's betting pattern: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Do you really think you see this hand often enough to make this a good call.

Unless BB was raising preflop to simply pickup the limpers calls, then caught a small peice of the flop. But this in NO WAY explains his turn all in with a board that is highly coordinated.

In my estimation, you may win this hand, but it will be because BB made a very poor and out of character play. I'm not sure I know ANY opponents against whom I can confidently call in your turn situation, much less someone whose play I respect.