Battle of the blinds - does hand reading go out the window?

[jonnyUCB]

6th hand on this table. I've played with villian before and don't recall anything extraordinary about him, but looking at PT now shows him as 65/11 over 200 hands.

(Looking back at the hand histories also shows a hand where he stole from the cutoff with J2o and took the pot with a continuation bet - though I had no recollection of this during the hand)

My main question is my river play where I felt I had no idea what he had but called merely based on the strength of my hand. This logic seems just plain wrong, especially when villian could come in with a very wide range of hands from the SB (putting me on a steal). What hands do I beat on the river that bet this large? Do i need to use this thought process or just shove it in? Anyone think I should be raising the turn?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $4 BB (4 handed) converter

Hero ($413.10)
UTG ($75.10)
Button ($378.40)
SB ($561.45)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $14</font>, SB calls $10.

Flop: ($28) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $20</font>, SB calls $20.

Turn: ($68) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $40</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $120</font>, Hero calls $80.

River: ($308) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $407.45 (All-In)</font>, Hero calls $259.10 (All-In).

Final Pot: $974.55

[Go_Blue88]

i definately prefer rerasing the turn here. The river is so hard to figure out; i'd just go with my instincts at the time. Sorry, but i have no solid advice for the river, i just think that you should reraise the turn.

[RiverFenix]

If you were to get it all in on the turn then the river doesnt mean anything to you other than that he is pushing. He wasnt limping QK and if he filled up before river then there isnt much you can do anyway.

Villians hand range is strange here, Id call here for sure. Not playing at this level, but wouldnt an Ax [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]'s warrant a raise from the SB if checked around?

I hope he has something like Q9 for your sake, anxious to hear results

[jonnyUCB]

[ QUOTE ]
Villians hand range is strange here, Id call here for sure. Not playing at this level, but wouldnt an Ax 's warrant a raise from the SB if checked around?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, especially with his PT stats, though limping out of position isn't such a huge mistake here. Im pretty sure he would raise with a wide range here and would be surprised to see Ad xd.

The problem I saw with raising the turn is that it folds worse hands - is this logic flawed? Any raise commits me so it would have to be a turn push... Will a bare queen/small flush call here? I want action from a lesser hand and he seems like he likes his hand, should that warrant a push? I think he might fold when I show so much strength over his strength. The river action didn't provide any extra information about his hand so perhaps I should have reraised the turn.

[xorbie]

PF I might just take a flop here, but that really depends on the flop of the table. If I'm in the SB I'm raising or folding this hand, but in the BB I feel like taking a flop is fine.

Flop play is good. I might even check behind here again, to disguise my hand. Turn bet is good, I will push to that raise though, because you aren't going to get credit for such a strong hand. No point in trying to play guessing games in case you hit an ugly river (Q, 4, 7, diamond).

[jonnyUCB]

I wouldn't be playing guessing games if an ugly river fell. I would fold. I was trying to balance wanting a worse hand to play on and protecting my hand at the same time, so I thought calling was the best option.

When someone pushes over what appears to be a really strong holding (given Villian's betting pattern), what weak hands are going to call? I feel like they will fold when behind and call when ahead here.. but perhaps my logic might be coming from a larger scale. What I think makes the hand interesting is that maybe you are right to think he will call the AI with a weak queen when in a battle of the blinds.

To be honest I felt like folding the river and took a long time to call, just because his bet screamed huge hand (boat) or bluff. A small flush/queen would make a value-sized bet here, no?

[xorbie]

You have 2/3 the pot here. Any reasonable player with any reasonable holding he thinks is good is going to push here, because anything less lets you double up when ahead and see a showdown for cheap when behind.

Also, in a blind battle, and with this board, I'm loving a K high flush. SB could have anything here, from small diamonds (and putting you on a Q), to thinking you are bluffing diamonds and having a Q himself. There is no real reason for either of you to put the other on a monster hand, especially because this guy is not putting you on QQ or any hand that makes a boat (except KK possibly).

[jonnyUCB]

I'm still stuck with this call/push predicament in this situation. So you're saying push because with his turn bet you know hes intending to set me in on the river anyway?

Slightly different situation: If you have QA instead of the flush, do you push on the turn then? In the original hand I have no additional outs to see the river, but it seems like again pushing folds the worse hands. Perhaps I'm giving the Villian too much credit here.

Edit: Another thought, putting all my chips in here seems like some 3rd level psychology. Im doing so based on the belief that he's overplaying his hand (sm flush, Queen with weak kicker) based on his belief that I'm overplaying my hand (queen with kicker, 99+) because we're in the blinds and our hand values are significantly higher. Is it only based on the fact that the villian thinks I'm overplaying my hand (he doesn't know I have the made flush), that I call? He would need to be severely overplaying a small flush or a queen here... his river bet is just too huge for a queen to play it like this, isn't it?

I pose the question about AQ because again the villian could think I'm overplaying my hand (99+), so I should I put my chips in with it?

Sorry for all this probing, I'm just interested to see whether we should just call based on the strength of my hand or whether we should consider how strongly the villian is playing his and what psychology he is using. At the time I just called because I had the flush, without considering much what he had.