First posted hand - fairly deep 1/2 NL hand

jonnyUCB · #1 02-28-2005, 08:16 PM

Hi all,

Though I've lurked this forum for a few months now, I figured I would gain a lot more if I actually posted and responded to people. I've been playing NLHE for a little over a year and have been fairly successful, now playing 1/2 ring mainly on Pokerstars.

Before I get to the hand in question, some background:
I was already up about 400 before the hand and was going to call it a night. I decided since this table had gone to shorthanded and since I multitable (I had the remainder of the round to play on a couple tables), I was going to post the BB to play another round. However, coming from a bit of badluck earlier in the night, I did not really want to get involved in a large hand where I would be facing a decision with a lot of money involved or from any position of uncertainty. Thus, my main goals when coming into the hand were a) having little to no uncertainty about my read and actions, b) keeping the pot under control by showing proper aggression to hopefully take it down early.

These goals are in themselves subjects of discussion since its arguable they may lead a poker player to lose out on some profit or play in a conservative manner - somewhat like reverse-tilt. Anyway, on to the hand:

Villian is in the SB, I am sitting to his direct left and we've been on the same table for about an hour. I have a good idea of what he's about since he seems to get involved in every hand. As such he's quite loose and aggressive but shouldn't be characterized as a skilled Villian. He seems the type who watched poker on TV and tries to mimick the Hollywood plays they show there. For example, he would min raise A3o utg and play it hard on an AQT flop, losing his entire stack. Or he would call a 5x bb raise with 89o and bet/raise whatever came down.

He's lost a couple buyins prior to this hand by playing in this manner. My encounters with him have never gone past the flop: I countered his min-raising maneuver by coming over the top of him with several holdings in hopes to isolate him and he folded to follow-thru aggression on the flop. Miraculously he's built his 100 buyin to close to 300 by catching some people offguard with lucky flops and his usual aggressive play. Anyways, here we go:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) converter

SB ($269.80)
Hero ($385.25)
UTG ($230.35)
MP ($161.25)
Button ($12)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls $2, 1 fold, SB raises to $4, Hero raises to $10, MP folds, SB raises to $16, Hero calls $6.

Flop: ($34) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $42, Hero raises to $84, SB calls $42.

Turn: ($202) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $42, SB calls $42.

River: ($286) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets $62, Hero calls $62.

Final Pot: $410

Results in white below: 
SB has Qd Ks (one pair, kings).
Hero has Ac Jd (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins $410. 

My line of thinking throughout the hand:
- Villian had been doing the minraise often but was passive when facing a reraise. Usually his aggression was saved for the flop, so his reraies preflop seemed to say AA, KK, QQ, maybe JJ TT. I thought it was likely I was drawing to a good ace as I couldn't see him making his play with AK AQ (though I was only 70% sure of this).
- Following that read, I read his flop overbet as a scared one wantind to induce a fold. When I raise I want nothing more than for him to fold and for the hand to end. When he calls my thinking becomes mottled.
- The turn was clearly the worst street for me. Any comments as to what type of thinking I should be going through at this point?
- The river was offering me close to 6-1 so I had to call.

I hope this post and my future ones will warrant interesting discussion, all criticism is welcomed.

JonnyUCB

xorbie · #2 03-01-2005, 01:03 AM

Hard to judge not having played. Read is very important shorthanded, and I guess it worked out for you. That said, I'm not reraising with AJ preflop, even if I think he might not have much. That way on the flop you can keep the pot size more manageable (or really stick it to him if you flop something like 2 pair, by taking advantage of his betting).

TrailofTears · #3 03-01-2005, 02:09 AM

So you are playing a villain who folds when played back at, and yet he showed more agression when you played back at him PF. Then he overbets the flop and you raise him and he calls. Then you bet the turn and he calls. Then he leads the river and you called. Can I ask what you are hoping he has here that you beat? A horribly played QQ? Overplayed AT?

Oh, and your goals:

[ QUOTE ]
keeping the pot under control by showing proper aggression

[/ QUOTE ]

Result: Failed when you re-raised PF with AJ (your first mistake), called his PF re-re-raise (second mistake), raised an already overbet flop (#3), and bet the turn (numero quatro). Next time, stick to your goals and avoid playing hands like this one.

[ QUOTE ]
having little to no uncertainty about my read and actions

[/ QUOTE ]

Result: Failed - This hand has so much uncertainty it is ridiculous, but I think you know that or you wouldn't have posted it.

Very good post, BTW. And Welcome to the forums. You are off to a very good start by posting a great hand, doing it well, and hopefully taking the criticism well.

- Trail

jonnyUCB · #4 03-01-2005, 02:22 AM

Hey ToT,

Thanks for your replies. For the river, I was about 66% towards folding and 33 calling - as such, the price was right to justify a call.

You're right, I totally murdered my goals in regard to this hand. I could have probably played the hand a lot easier (in a smaller pot) by flatcalling pf and would have been able to raise his potsized bet by a large amout hence forcing the issue a lot more.

As it is, how do you read his flop bet? Would you have gone with your read here and re-popped him (what kind of hand with an ace bets this hard)? Is the min-raise not accomplishing anything? Would a call have been justified given the posibility of a flush draw?

On the turn, the worst possible card came. If he indeed has KK it got there, flush got there, etc. Do I check behind here, addressing mistake 3, and leave myself in a similar tough situation on the river?

I agree I should have just stuck to my goals, but for some reason I felt that MORE aggression would lead to keeping the pot controllable, but that went horribly wrong. When facing idiots such as the Villian in the OP, do you never press the issue hard early in the betting? Do you prefer letting them hang themselves in later streets (and possibly outdrawing to whatever BS they're betting with)?

I feel a case could be made for raising MORE on the flop and being done with it afterwards, though an idiot such as the Villian could probably justify calling a much larger raise if he was willing to call the minimum raise.

Sorry for being so wordy, I just feel there were a lot of options when playing this type of opponent. Hence the reason why I LOVE this game [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

TrailofTears · #5 03-01-2005, 02:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
what kind of hand with an ace bets this hard)?

[/ QUOTE ]

The kind that doesn't want that flush to get there for cheap.

[ QUOTE ]
Would you have gone with your read here and re-popped him (what kind of hand with an ace bets this hard)?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I would have called his bet (remember, keep the pot small with TP hands). Also, if he did miss that flop, why push him off of a worse hand. Let him bet it for you as it accomplishes two things at once (make money and keep pot small.)

[ QUOTE ]
Is the min-raise not accomplishing anything? /quote]

I hate min-raises as a general rule. But more importantly, I don't raise here for the reasons already discussed.

[ QUOTE ]
Would a call have been justified given the posibility of a flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said previously, he would only overbet to get rid of the flush drawers, not to draw to the flush. If anything, if I see a heart on the turn, I might push, especially if I already think my AJ is good. It will create extra fold equity for you since he clearly doesn't want to see another heart.

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn, the worst possible card came. If he indeed has KK it got there, flush got there, etc. Do I check behind here, addressing mistake 3, and leave myself in a similar tough situation on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, that heart should be a beacon for you, although I agree the K isn't exactly what I want to see. I would call the bet I expect to see from him, nothing more.

[ QUOTE ]
When facing idiots such as the Villian in the OP, do you never press the issue hard early in the betting? Do you prefer letting them hang themselves in later streets (and possibly outdrawing to whatever BS they're betting with)?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is read dependent, but I can't say that online I can tell if a $6 raise is from a mid PP or from AKs, so I prefer to play more cautious. And as I said, I prefer to keep the pot small, whether the villain is hanging his/herself or not.

I hope I addressed some of your questions well. Feel free to refute any of my answers if you would like, since certainly nothing anyone (especially me) says is law in poker. Nice win, but learn the lessons from this hand and take them into the next session.

- Trail

jonnyUCB · #6 03-01-2005, 02:48 AM

Great suggestions. I definitely took calling into account (and will weigh it more heavily in the future), but against this particular villian I was not going to be very happy calling large bets on 3 streets so I was hoping to get the hand over and done with. He was the type that see the heart as no consequence and raise again. Even if I muster the nerve to go by my read and flatcall again on the turn, isn't calling allowing him to get a free chance to outdraw (say if he had Qh in his hand), or is the theory behind this that they are doing the charging themselves?

Rocaix · #7 03-01-2005, 02:58 AM

Ugh, this is a situation where the pot management got completely thrown out the window.

Against these types of poor LAGish players, you want to keep the pot small against them especially when you are unsure where you stand. Thus with position, just smooth call preflop.

Given his description when he over bets the pot on the flop, he either has a monster or wants you to fold badly. I don't see what a mini-raise accomplishes other then grossly inflating the pot, since he's not going away with any kind of draw or piece of the board. A smooth call here accomplishes the same thing as a raise.

When he checks the turn, you must value bet him. Your underbet on the turn however indicated weakness and defined your hand pretty clearly. This means you have to call the an impending river bluff as the pot is very large now.

If he were a better player, he would've pushed the river after you showed weakness on the turn. The post oak on the river was a pretty bushleague play.
A good question would be, would you or could you call a river push, knowing that this is a large pot that will be bluffed at a good deal of time.

TrailofTears · #8 03-01-2005, 03:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Even if I muster the nerve to go by my read and flatcall again on the turn, isn't calling allowing him to get a free chance to outdraw (say if he had Qh in his hand), or is the theory behind this that they are doing the charging themselves?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, a few things. Don't fear the heart draw as I guarantee an overbet is from a hand that wants nothing to do with the heart draw. Second, one thing you need to realize is that you as a player are a key determinant of the odds of a hand. If you are able to let go at the right time, then you have effectively killed there implied odds. Granted, you lose the hand, but you will save money and prevent them from getting the money they need to get out of you to make drawing a profitable move. Third, with the previous commment out of the way, he is not getting the odds to draw as it is so don't worry about it so much. Relax a bit.

Also, more as a side note and a caution: Bad players get good hands PF just as often as good players do. Don't assume that because he is bad, that his raise and re-re-raise means squat. You need to control your ego, and not allow yourself to believe that "there is no way he could have a better hand than me", or that "because I am a better player than he is, I can magically make my hand better than his or can take the pot by sheer force." I don't mean to sound preachy, but it is something that you have to keep in mind.

- Trail

jonnyUCB · #9 03-01-2005, 05:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Also, more as a side note and a caution: Bad players get good hands PF just as often as good players do. Don't assume that because he is bad, that his raise and re-re-raise means squat. You need to control your ego, and not allow yourself to believe that "there is no way he could have a better hand than me", or that "because I am a better player than he is, I can magically make my hand better than his or can take the pot by sheer force." I don't mean to sound preachy, but it is something that you have to keep in mind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very sound advice. I was really on a rush since I had just finished an english outline so was feeling great about myself and maybe had a little of this said ego inflation. As it relates to the hand, I had seen him doing the min-raise all night long and I guess I like to put him on a hand that can stand a raise (or reraise me in this situation) rather than get stacked on a J53J4 board when he has A2. I think this stems from my shaky postflop play so I like to get things straight early on in the hand.

TheWorstPlayer · #10 03-01-2005, 06:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I like to put him on a hand that can stand a raise (or reraise me in this situation) rather than get stacked on a J53J4 board when he has A2. I think this stems from my shaky postflop play so I like to get things straight early on in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Umm...what would you have thought if he had shown you AA here? Probably something like "Wow, how did I miss the signs? He re-raised me preflop, bet the flop and called my raise, called my bet on the turn, and then bet the river! I'm such an idiot for putting that much money in the pot with TPJK!"

Fact is, I think you played this hand poorly and got very lucky. You were definitely a dog to his range of hands, IMO.