Open pushing with ~10M

[ansky451]

So what are the circumstances in which you'd open push QQ for 20 big blinds? Give me an example.

[flyingmoose]

I'm glad you posted this, because overbet pushes with Ms in the 8-10 range are part of my game, but a part I never discuss because everybody seems to be against them. More than anything these overbet open-pushes with Ms of 8-10 do help me 8-table more successfully by making the game easier on me. You often add the substantial blinds to your stack, and are also often ahead when called.

I think too much of poker theory is based on us being better than the oposition. No matter how good you are, playing postflop in a pot that is about the size of your stack is really hard. You have to make a decision for all your chips based on very little information (basically a preflop call). When you're in position, you're open to a stop-and-go. With a pot that size you're also easily trapped. As an 8-tabler I simply can't make the right decision often enough in these situations, and my opponent has too many tools to outplay me because of the awkward pot. I find it best to avoid these situations by simply shoving at the pot to begin with when the pot is significant to my stack (M<~10).

Most importantly -- and you already covered this -- when your stack is in the 10-ish M range, you really don't mind racing. These are the spots where acquiring a stack you can play poker with has a huge implied EV to it for many reasons (all of which have been covered in depth in other threads).

[Rizen]

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So what are the circumstances in which you'd open push QQ for 20 big blinds? Give me an example.

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First hour of a rebuy?!? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] j/k

Probably never... I think more in terms of M than BB though, but I know of no tournament structure where having an M of ~10 is 20BB, usually it's 12-15. I don't want to say never because I don't believe there is a never in poker, but I cannot imagine a situation where I would.

-Rizen

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Make a normal raise and basically push any flop.
2. Make a smaller 2.5x raise (thats my standard preflop raise now anyway) and play poker on the flop.

The only time I'm ok with these overbets is when you are shortstacked so everybody else is much deeper, and consequently more willing to make loose calls, because then you won't loose much value if you are also pushing with AA/KK.

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For #1, what about the times you are called by a blind and they push or bet into you??

I also really think making a standard raise then always pushing when OOP might be a leak too, but I certainly like it better than raising 3x with the intention of folding any flop that misses you.

-Rizen

[ansky451]

Pokerstars.

100/200 25. 9 players 225 in antes + 300 for the blinds= 525. So if you had 4k, your M would in fact be LOWER than 10. Your move, sir.

[MLG]

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I also really think making a standard raise then always pushing when OOP might be a leak too, but I certainly like it better than raising 3x with the intention of folding any flop that misses you.


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If they push, sometimes you call sometimes you fold, depending on what you have and all sorts of other stuff. As for betting "ANY" flop, yes its not optimal, my point is that its probably better than open pushing. Obv some combination of pushing/betting/checking is bessed, heavily weighted to pushing.

[Rizen]

[ QUOTE ]
Pokerstars.

100/200 25. 9 players 225 in antes + 300 for the blinds= 525. So if you had 4k, your M would in fact be LOWER than 10. Your move, sir.

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In this case I would rarely open push, only because a standard raise (to 500-600) would not represent 15-20% of my stack. In general a lot of my open pushes come because I think once you get to the point where you're considering a raise or re-raise that would commit more than 15% of your stack you make things very tough on yourself.

I would consider it from EP/MP if I felt the table was playing loosely enough I could get a call from a push with a lesser hand a reasonable amount of the time.

The 100/200 25 antes level on Stars is a bit of an enigma though since it is the only level with antes on stars where the ante represents more than 10% of the BB. At most levels it's pretty rare for 20BB to equal < 10M.

FWIW I usually need my stack to be around 3000 to consider open pushing at 100/200 25 antes an okay move.

-Rizen

[ansky451]

Ok Rizen, I hope you don't take too much offense to this, but the more you respond to this thread the more useless your original post becomes. You haven't really given any specific examples where you would do a somewhat non standard push. I mean overall the content to be gained in this thread seems to be "I sometimes push with an M of 20, but it depends." And I still disagree that open pushing with QQ is maximizing your EV, when you have an M of 20-- almost ever.

[MLG]

I pretty much agree that you havent tried to give any proof for why open pushing is better, than other options and I do kinda think the onus is on you because your proposing something against conventional thinking. There's nothing wrong with claiming that pushing with a biggish M is correct, but your gonna have to at least try and show some numbers.

[Rizen]

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I pretty much agree that you havent tried to give any proof for why open pushing is better, than other options and I do kinda think the onus is on you because your proposing something against conventional thinking. There's nothing wrong with claiming that pushing with a biggish M is correct, but your gonna have to at least try and show some numbers.

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To be fair, I've always said M of 10, not 20. Also to be fair, my point of this post was never to say 'you should open push' (although I have stated several times that I do believe it can be correct, and yes, I haven't backed it up with anything). It is the continuation of a conversation from last night's sweat thread in which multiple people questioned some of my pushes as 'reckless' without really offering an alternative play that was better.

I'll crunch some #s once I'm away from the tables and see if I can come up with something more substantial. You're likely to see mostly 'fluff' posts on something like this as long as I'm playing 3-4 tournaments.

-Rizen