Bad laydown preflop?

Arm187r · #1 06-18-2005, 03:57 AM

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 caps, CO calls, Hero folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (18 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, CO calls.

River: (12 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, CO raises, BB calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

Bad mistake to fold this preflop? This is probably a straight forward situation but I don't recall anything I've read covering this (Don't have SS yet). I folded because after the BB reraise and the cap I figured AA,KK, AK, AQ, or QQ are all possible capping hands and I'm in serious trouble. I had a problem similiar to this that I posted about but I had a pocket pair that time. This time seemed different enough for me to post about.
What kind of pot odds do I need to call preflop with this hand? Also I'm sure some people will say fold this when it was raised the first time. I'm just not good enough yet to fold it for a .75 of a SB

xwillience · #2 06-18-2005, 04:03 AM

good fold...too many times you will be dominated i think. if they were suited u may have a case for calling simply because the pot will be so huge but fold in this case

sholvar · #3 06-18-2005, 04:14 AM

This is a good fold!

These action before the flop highers the possibility, that anyone holds a hand like AQ, KK or AA.
If turn and river are some blank cards you will often lose against an FH Qs full of Aces.
IF the rivercards gives you a king you will often lose against a higher Full House (you only have Queens full and in many situations you will lose against Kings full and Aces full here) what is very costly.
And this is a good flop for your hand. In many other flopsituations your chances to win the pot is not so good, because unimproved you have no chance against QQ, KK and AA.

Sinnister · #4 06-18-2005, 04:17 AM

You shouldve laid the kq down in the sb against a raise.

Dave G. · #5 06-18-2005, 04:29 AM

Bad fold.

...fold the first time around instead. Your position sucks and your hand against a raise also sucks. Getting a 25% discount from the SB does not turn this into a call.

Dave G. · #6 06-18-2005, 04:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just not good enough yet to fold it for a .75 of a SB

[/ QUOTE ]

Think to yourself, what sort of flop are you hoping for here? Are you happy when a K or Q hits? Sometimes you'll have the best hand and win a small pot. Other times you'll have a dominated hand and you'll pay off to a big pot.

The only flops you can be happy with this hand are flops like this one, or two pair, or an OESD or flopped straight. These don't happen anywhere near often enough to justify playing this hand for this price.

Also, you aren't paying .75 of an SB, you're paying 1.5 SB! That's quite a difference.

caggin · #7 06-18-2005, 04:45 AM

Good fold, but - as you know - you should've folded the first time.

Arm187r · #8 06-18-2005, 04:46 AM

Final Pot: 16 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 5h 5s (two pair, queens and fives).
CO has 4s 4h (full house, fours full of queens).
Outcome: CO wins 16 BB

I'm glad I folded I would've lost this hand had I called.
BUT I'm still not sure about folding for 3/4 of a bet in a multiway pot.
I know I'm gonna have to hit the flop hard or flop a big draw and that I have the worst position . I understand just flopping a pair here is dangerous. In fact isn't this the type of flop I'd want if it had only been raised preflop ONE time? I had no reads on the player since I hadn't been at the table long if that makes any difference one way or another. And with only one bet at me I'm not automatically putting him on AA,'s KK's, etc.
I'd definitely like to fix this in my play if its a leak in my play but I don't want to become weak-tight either.

Thanks a lot for all the advice guys

sholvar · #9 06-18-2005, 04:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Final Pot: 16 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 5h 5s (two pair, queens and fives).
CO has 4s 4h (full house, fours full of queens).
Outcome: CO wins 16 BB

I'm glad I folded I would've lost this hand had I called.
BUT I'm still not sure about folding for 3/4 of a bet in a multiway pot.
I know I'm gonna have to hit the flop hard or flop a big draw and that I have the worst position . I understand just flopping a pair here is dangerous. In fact isn't this the type of flop I'd want if it had only been raised preflop ONE time? I had no reads on the player since I hadn't been at the table long if that makes any difference one way or another. And with only one bet at me I'm not automatically putting him on AA,'s KK's, etc.
I'd definitely like to fix this in my play if its a leak in my play but I don't want to become weak-tight either.

Thanks a lot for all the advice guys

[/ QUOTE ]
2 things for that:
1. even if this 2 guys would hold 32o both your desicion to fold was correct. You play poker to make the right desicions not to win every pot.
2. I didnt saw that you called the first raise. Your only chance of a good flop with KQ without raisers is something like JT3 or better JT9.
But anybody holding a Jackpocket in my example or an acepocket if you get a draw or a straight with Ace high, he has many outs to get a full house, sometimes much more than you, to get a straight.
KQ is no hand for calling raises on 10-handed tables.

Sinnister · #10 06-18-2005, 04:55 AM

You shoulda layed it down to the 1st raise