Is checking out "unethical"? - Page 2

jba · #11 11-09-2005, 08:14 PM

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How can a, presumably, experienced player with nearly 2000 posts on this forum ask this question? This is basic stuff. I usually assume the guy checking out is a weak fish.

Regards,

T

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I don't play a lot of live poker, I guess. Thanks for your input.

Unabridged · #12 11-09-2005, 08:16 PM

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in low limit, limit hold'em it's probably not a big deal. But it is a poker pecadillo. It is a big time no-no in no-limit. I imagine you would get your ass chewed if you did it in a game of any size.

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what if you are online and don't want your hand to be recorded if gets checked all the way? i could see in bigger games where this could be valuable information you don't want to give up

bigfishead · #13 11-09-2005, 09:34 PM

Wow I find it hard to believe that none of the 10 responses give even a clue to this "unethical" move to which when I am dealing I have been the "guy next to you". And you (not our poster) always gave that very same response.

The answer: Offer protection to the rest of the table.

Just knowing they have gotten past you, means that you will not check-raise. Understand?

1 step further: 4 players after the flop, during any portion of the hand after the flop. 1st player bets 2nd player slowly begins to reach out and cut the call of 4 chips but he has a stack in his hand..he's not finished....you insta-muck....NOW HE RAISES! You offered no protection to the other 2 players involved.

And yes in a larger NL game you will get kicked in the nuts for it. As you should now.

JohnnyHumongous · #14 11-09-2005, 11:58 PM

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Wow I find it hard to believe that none of the 10 responses give even a clue to this "unethical" move to which when I am dealing I have been the "guy next to you". And you (not our poster) always gave that very same response.

The answer: Offer protection to the rest of the table.

Just knowing they have gotten past you, means that you will not check-raise. Understand?

1 step further: 4 players after the flop, during any portion of the hand after the flop. 1st player bets 2nd player slowly begins to reach out and cut the call of 4 chips but he has a stack in his hand..he's not finished....you insta-muck....NOW HE RAISES! You offered no protection to the other 2 players involved.

And yes in a larger NL game you will get kicked in the nuts for it. As you should now.

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No, you see, the rules are the rules, and openfolding is allowed. Getting angry about someone openfolding is like getting angry about someone calling a raise with T2s and flopping a flush. You might be frustrated because you got burned, but the player operated within the rules of the game. It wasn't an angleshoot either, he wasn't string betting, none of that gray area stuff. He openfolded. Allowed by the rules. End of story.

Oh and newsflash, of course people acting behind get more information than those acting ahead. That's that old advantage-of-position thingie we talk about from time to time.

IceKing · #15 11-10-2005, 12:23 AM

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Wow I find it hard to believe that none of the 10 responses give even a clue to this "unethical" move to which when I am dealing I have been the "guy next to you". And you (not our poster) always gave that very same response.

The answer: Offer protection to the rest of the table.

Just knowing they have gotten past you, means that you will not check-raise. Understand?

1 step further: 4 players after the flop, during any portion of the hand after the flop. 1st player bets 2nd player slowly begins to reach out and cut the call of 4 chips but he has a stack in his hand..he's not finished....you insta-muck....NOW HE RAISES! You offered no protection to the other 2 players involved.

And yes in a larger NL game you will get kicked in the nuts for it. As you should now.

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No, you see, the rules are the rules, and openfolding is allowed. Getting angry about someone openfolding is like getting angry about someone calling a raise with T2s and flopping a flush. You might be frustrated because you got burned, but the player operated within the rules of the game. It wasn't an angleshoot either, he wasn't string betting, none of that gray area stuff. He openfolded. Allowed by the rules. End of story.

Oh and newsflash, of course people acting behind get more information than those acting ahead. That's that old advantage-of-position thingie we talk about from time to time.

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You have no idea.. Its not forbidden in written rules, but its unethical, and unethical behaviour is not tolerated. Keep doing it, first you will be warned and then kicked.

ebroil · #16 11-10-2005, 12:55 AM

People acting behind you always have more information than those who act in front of you.

BoxTree · #17 11-10-2005, 01:06 AM

I can't see why this would be unethical unless you were colluding with a friend and were HU on the end.

But it's definitely a no-no in no limit (of ANY size).

In a limit game, it's no big deal. This happens regularly at Commerce 20/40. Mason once won a hand with 32o this way.

jba · #18 11-10-2005, 02:10 AM

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I can't see why this would be unethical unless you were colluding with a friend and were HU on the end.

But it's definitely a no-no in no limit (of ANY size).

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I don't see how it would be okay in limit and not ok in no limit.

I think I've been convinced by this thread that this isn't unethical - but it is clearly perceived by many as bad etiquette. There have been no rational arguments that have convinced me that there is anything that bad about doing it in any case - otherwise it would be a very very easy thing to just make against the rules. As someone else said, people want to kick you in the nuts for playing 83o but that isn't unethical (thank you jesus).

In any case, there have definitely has been enough convincing that it is a "bad" thing to do, and since there is no real significant value in doing it it's something I'll never do again.

bigfishead · #19 11-10-2005, 05:31 AM

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But it's definitely a no-no in no limit (of ANY size).

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I don't see how it would be okay in limit and not ok in no limit.

In any case, there have definitely has been enough convincing that it is a "bad" thing to do, and since there is no real significant value in doing it it's something I'll never do again.

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Thank you.

And it matters just as much in limit or no limit IMO. It's just that MORE people wont tolerate it in NL.

Brom · #20 11-10-2005, 07:40 AM

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I can't see why this would be unethical unless you were colluding with a friend and were HU on the end.

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I always thought that this is why it is unethical? The whole reason one is allowed to ask to see someone else's cards at the end is to check for collusion. It is NOT there for someone to gain information about how other's play (although it is used for that 99.9999% of the time). When someone checks out at the end of the hand it is like a way to circumvent this collusion check.

I think it's more of a hot topic issue on the river rather than on the flop. I've seen plenty of times where there were 6 limpers preflop, and SB calls while saying "pot odds". Then the flop totally misses him and he open folds while everyone has a good chuckle about what he may have held. No one seems to mind it as much in a case like this.

As a sort of off-topic story, I'd like to share an amusing check-out story of my own. I had been playing holdem for almost a year and was in a live 10/20 game. I limped in in early position with Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. It ended up being 7 way to the flop for one bet. Flop was something like A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. I was in my "tricky play" stage of learning the game so I thought it would be awesome to go for a checkraise. Checked around. Turn bricked. I was sure someone would now bet 2nd, 3rd, maybe even 4th pair here, so I went for a checkraise again. Checked around. River bricked again. There were too many players in I thought for my hand to be good, so I open mucked when checked to me with 4 players to act behind me. I didn't want anyone to see I failed to bet with my hand. Turns out my Queen high with Jack kicker would have outkicked someone else's Queen high, and the pot would've been mine. Now I never open muck, but for the "ethical" reasons as well as this one.