Two Plus Two Older Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Older Archives > Other Topics > Politics

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-15-2005, 01:45 PM
adios adios is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,298
Default Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"


Kazuo Okamoto, who takes over as head of research and development at Toyota next month, said the extra costs of hybrid cars more than wiped out any financial gains of lower fuel consumption. Buyers in the US would have to want to help the environment, not just save money. In Japan and Europe, the extra costs were approximately balanced by fuel savings.

Toyota had set a target of reducing the extra cost of the hybrid to a level where it could compete on value with ordinary cars by 2010 at the current US petrol price of just over $2 a gallon, he said.

“The major barrier to wider acceptance is cost,” he said during a visit to Europe.

“When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified. But this car has other interests, for instance environmental protection.”

Another Toyota executive was more blunt in his analysis: “Buying a hybrid is about political correctness, it is not about the money,” he said.



Sad really in that the cost is not lower.

Linky
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:08 PM
tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: actually pvn
Posts: 0
Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

Well, there are tax rebates, which this toyota guy doesn't seem to be taking into account. Also there are psychic benefits (alluded to with the "political correctness" comment).

You can't really "financially justify" buying a Mercedes over a Civic. Well, most people can't. I guess people that drive clients around a lot could, or men buying them for trophy wives.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:19 PM
andyfox andyfox is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 4,677
Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

I saw an op/ed article about this in the WSJ either yesterday or today. I guess the Prius costs many thousands of dollars more than similar non-Hybrid cars (I think the figure was $9,000, but I might be wrong), so you'd have to drive uber miles to make it economically +EV.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:19 PM
adios adios is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,298
Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

Good points and yeah the tax credits do mitigate the cost. I guess the Prius is a status symbol of sorts.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:24 PM
Beer and Pizza Beer and Pizza is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 66
Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

[ QUOTE ]
Also there are psychic benefits

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the only benefit. It is the green's version of conspicuous consumption, and being better than the Joneses.

The tax benefits are just Peter stealing from Paul.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:27 PM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Writing \"Small Stakes Hold \'Em\"
Posts: 4,548
Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

[ QUOTE ]
The tax benefits are just Peter stealing from Paul.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they aren't. They are internalizing an externality.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:31 PM
Beer and Pizza Beer and Pizza is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 66
Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The tax benefits are just Peter stealing from Paul.

[/ QUOTE ]

No they aren't. They are internalizing an externality.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you feel superior to us regular mortals because you are a vegetarian?

If you do, you will understand why the hybrid buyer is willing to pay more for their car despite its having a negative effect on the environment. It makes them feel superior to the great unwashed.

The tax benefits were passed by politicians who also wanted to feel superior to the rest of us, because they "care" so much about the environment. Forget for the moment that the tax benefit has no measurable effect on the environment.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:33 PM
tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: actually pvn
Posts: 0
Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

The tax benefits are still real, though, at least to the guy making the purchasing decision. In fact, you're not really "stealing" from anyone in this situation, you're reducing the amount the government steals from you.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:37 PM
Beer and Pizza Beer and Pizza is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 66
Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

[ QUOTE ]
The tax benefits are still real, though, at least to the guy making the purchasing decision. In fact, you're not really "stealing" from anyone in this situation, you're reducing the amount the government steals from you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you don't understand that that money is still needed to run our government. Other taxpayers (maybe future taxpayers if we borrow the money) will have to pay the taxes to cover the taxes you are not paying.

Yes, you are stealing from other taxpayers.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-15-2005, 02:44 PM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Writing \"Small Stakes Hold \'Em\"
Posts: 4,548
Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

[ QUOTE ]
Do you feel superior to us regular mortals because you are a vegetarian?

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not. I think the world would be a better place if more people became vegetarian, but I think the same "better place" effect could be achieved by regulating modern agriculture more stringently in some areas and by forcing some of their externalities to be internalized.

In fact, if a good job were done of that, then it would be far more effective at making the world better than if merely more people became vegetarian. While reducing the demand for meat would help, it would only be a big band-aid to a more fundamental problem.

[ QUOTE ]
If you do, you will understand why the hybrid buyer is willing to pay more for their car despite its having a negative effect on the environment. It makes them feel superior to the great unwashed.

[/ QUOTE ]

My wife drives a hybrid. She bought it because she enjoys it (part of that enjoyment being the knowledge that she is being socially responsible), not because it makes "financial sense." But that's not my point at all.

My point is that tax incentives to drive lower emmissions vehicles are hardly Peter stealing from Paul. Air pollution is one enormous externality in our economy. Tax credits for lower emmissions are a way to internalize that externality. There's no reason pollution should be "free" to the polluters.

Industries from agriculture to automobiles to energy to mining to textiles to whatever else are taking a big fat dump on our environment. And they are doing so essentially free of charge due to a FLAW in our market system. While I think it's nice if people make responsible decisions on their own, I don't think there's a moral component to that. I'm ok with people acting in rational self-interest, but the structure under which they do that has to minimize externalities and stop the pillaging of the world's resources. Presently our structure comes nowhere close.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:54 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.