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  #21  
Old 12-15-2005, 04:11 PM
Ed Miller Ed Miller is offline
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Location: Writing \"Small Stakes Hold \'Em\"
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Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

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There are a number of other market efficiencies that would come into play that would make the roads cheaper, safer, and cleaner. For example, the technology exists (and has existed for probably a decade) to fully automate the roads, at the very least the highways. 95% of a modern road at full capacity is completely empty. Computer technology could vastly increase the packing efficiency of the roads, which is today limited by human psychological factors. A computer controlled road that is 50% empty still carries ten times the traffic of a modern road. Furthermore, computer control would allow significantly higher speeds. This means that the traffic flux that could be sustained is enormous. The economic implications are enormous. Computer controlled drafting would increase fuel efficiency and lower emissions by a significant fraction (perhaps 20%, although I don't remember the number off the top of my head).

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Now this is an extremely intriguing idea. It's one I've sort of fantasized about before, but never considered seriously.

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By the way, thanks for SSH. Best poker book I've ever read, and I have a stack 4 feet thick.

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I'm glad you liked it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
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  #22  
Old 12-15-2005, 04:25 PM
tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

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I guess you don't understand that that money is still needed to run our government. Other taxpayers (maybe future taxpayers if we borrow the money) will have to pay the taxes to cover the taxes you are not paying.

Yes, you are stealing from other taxpayers.

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There's a bank robber hitting all the banks in town. I, as a bank owner, notice this pattern, and increase my security. The robber decides to skip my bank and rob someone else. Have I stolen from the other banks in town?
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  #23  
Old 12-15-2005, 05:12 PM
Il_Mostro Il_Mostro is offline
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Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

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set up a system to just automatically pay their neighbors without going through the expense of lawsuits.

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How about the people further away? Pollution doesn't stay locally. Just poking a bit, it's an interesting thought experiment.
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  #24  
Old 12-15-2005, 05:23 PM
tylerdurden tylerdurden is offline
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Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

If the people further away have damages, let them pursue them. As it stands now, governments encourage and protect polluters by setting "acceptable standards". Anyone that pollutes below that arbitrary level is (basically) immune from claims, even if they cause actual, measurable damages. That's *exactly* how externalities are artificially created (they don't exist in a true free market).
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  #25  
Old 12-15-2005, 05:30 PM
Il_Mostro Il_Mostro is offline
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Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

there certainly is a problem with measurements in all this. many problems due to pollution isn't really measurable in the short-term. or indeed in the long run.
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  #26  
Old 12-15-2005, 05:31 PM
Rduke55 Rduke55 is offline
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Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

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I am curious, you and your wife seem to be willing to take active steps to improve the environment as you perceive it. I understand LV has a bit of a shortage of clean water. What do you do in your personal lives to help the water situation? Or is it not an issue.

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Are you trying the "You're a dirty hypocrite if you try and improve one thing but not everything else." argument?
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  #27  
Old 12-15-2005, 05:56 PM
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Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

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Also there are psychic benefits

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This is the only benefit. It is the green's version of conspicuous consumption, and being better than the Joneses.


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Certainly the "green's version of consipicuous consumption" is one motivation, but there are plenty of other motivations as well.

Regardless of your view of the morality of the tax benefit, it does exist and is therefore another motivation.

Other motivations to buy hybrids include:
1. Some carpool lanes allow hybrids or ultra low emissions vehicles without a passenger (thus, saves time on freeways)
2. Some states require fewer smog checks on low emissions vehicles (thus, saves money on smog checks)
3. Hybrids don't get stolen as often (excluding the hybrid civic)
4. Currently, hybrids retain their value better than non-hybrids

Everyone has a variety of motivations for why they purchased the car they have. Here is my story:

I bought a used 2000 Honda Insight for $9500 two years ago. Kelley Blue Book rates my car worth at least
private party = $9,810
trade-in = $8,260
That's pretty good, I'd say.

I bought my Insight because:
1. I like how it looks. It's space-age cool. It has rear fender skirts! It's awesome!
2. I like how it feels. It's small and cosy, like the womb [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I love it. I can make U-turns anywhere, no problem. I can parallel park anywhere, no problem.
3. It reminds me of the car I had in high school (a Toyota Starlet). The hatchback makes this small car way more versatile than my last sedan. I have loaded it up with all kinds of things.
4. It was a good deal. I didn't get ripped off. It hasn't had any major problems.
5. It stands out in a crowd. Yeah, I draw attention. People always ask me about it. People have even left notes on it with phone numbers. They like it.
6. It never gets vandalized. My last car (Toyota Tercel) was broken into 4 times! But no one touches this car.
7. Since I can go so far on a tank, I'm always up for road trips. It brings back that high school "always want to drive" feeling.

I'm sure I'd like a cabrio or a mini coopper too, but my lil insight is just awesome! I love her!

PS - Mason drives an Insight too, just like mine!
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  #28  
Old 12-15-2005, 05:59 PM
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Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

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Do you feel superior to us regular mortals because you are a vegetarian?

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Haha. Ed would feel superior no matter what.
He was born with a huge ego!
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  #29  
Old 12-15-2005, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

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If the roads were privatized, their owners could be rightly sued for the pollution they create.

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This doesnt work under American tort law for many reasons. First, as a practical matter, any individual's "injury" from pollution is likely to be de minimum, and thus individually there is no incentive to sue (even though collectively the injury might be material). Second, because each individual's injury is de minimus, any provable damages would also be de minimus. Thus even if you wanted to get lawyered up to sue, there is no economic incentive to sue. Third, thus the primary remedy you're talking about is really injunctive in nature--ie, an order from the court to the defendant "to stop polluting." This is a classic case of a situation where government intervention is appropriate--protection of public goods where a collective action problem prevents the tort law from properly functioning. Fourth, the use of lawyers to reduce pollution is an unnecessary economic deadweight loss--lawyers essentially are economic friction for both the plaintiff and defendant. A much more efficient solution is regulation, with each individual complying voluntarily with regulations b/c of the threat of being discovered and sanctioned (criminally or civilly). Economists would describe this as lowered "fencing costs". Fifth, it is not even clear that road owners could be held liable under tort law for the pollution caused by the operators of vehicles. For instance, road owners could make a rule: "Only low-emission vehicles may enter the tollway. By driving on our tollway, you represent that you drive a low emission vehicle." If it turns out that a high-emission vehicle were driving on the tollway (and thus causing a pollution "injury"), the toll road owner would probably not be liable under American tortlaw, because the injury was caused by an intervening tortfeasor. Thus, as a legal matter, your approach is contrary to American principles of civil liability.

Im all for market solutions and individual action, but your example is really horrible.
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  #30  
Old 12-15-2005, 06:15 PM
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Default Re: Toyota: \"No Financial Justification in US for Buying Hybrids\"

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I am curious, you and your wife seem to be willing to take active steps to improve the environment as you perceive it. I understand LV has a bit of a shortage of clean water. What do you do in your personal lives to help the water situation? Or is it not an issue.

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We drink beer instead of water and we shower together.
[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
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