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Old 12-26-2005, 01:21 PM
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Default Do you guys have a \"time\" to start to steal?

I know a lot of people hate when posters use reading material like the Harrington On Hold'em series as a blueprint for their tournament play. I'm one of them, and I believe I would be a lost cause without them.

That being said Dan Harrington mentions in the middle of Book 1 that when the action is folded to him at a full table and he is sitting with a hand like KJ suited or A7 suited he likes to raise to "steal the blinds."

At what point do you guys start incorporating this information? To me with blinds at 10/20 or 15/30 it seems like a waste and a way to get into trouble.

Some of us here discuss "ABC" poker as the way to go in early rounds. Though I've always had an awkward job switching gears to start to steal when I'm in the cutoff or on the button.

For a regular PokerStars tournament with 1500 starting chips and blinds starting at 10/20 and increasing every 15 minutes is the 25/50 level a good time to start incorporating "the raise marginal face cards/ace,suited conncectors to take blinds" or do you guys believe action should be started right away or at a later level.

I've been very interested in this, sorry if this is below most of us.
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Old 12-26-2005, 01:34 PM
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Default Re: Do you guys have a \"time\" to start to steal?

This is a tough question since it really depends on alot of things. How is the table? Who is in the blinds? How big is my stack? How big are the blinds stack?

In generally, I tend to steal blinds when I feel that the chip I get by having everyone folding brings something to my stack. Let's not say I have 5000 and the blinds is 15/30. I could care less about blind stealing then. But let's say My stack is 1500 blinds is 50/100. I find myself in MP2 with 75 of hearts for example. I gladly raise here if its folded to me being happy if I take the blinds. If I get called, I will get payed off bigtime if I hit my hand but if I miss entirely and feel that my opponent may have hit I will give it up. There are too good sides with this as I see it, I can steal the pot after the flop if I have a good feeling, or I can flop a well hiding monster.

So in short, it all depends between my stack, the chip stacks of the players left to act, my hand (it does matter to some point, yes) and who is in the blinds. If it's a really tight player and he calls, I better be careful post-flop since he got something. You get the point, it depends...
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  #3  
Old 12-26-2005, 02:44 PM
Sam T. Sam T. is offline
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Location: St Louis, MO
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Default Re: Do you guys have a \"time\" to start to steal?

My favorite cop-out: It Depends.

It depends in part on what you mean by "steal". If you have a look at Strassa's hand with the masters you see him raising in LP with a lowish suited one-gap. It's hardly a premium hand (even by his standards), but is it a steal? No, because the blinds are still as valuable as a once-chewed M&M at this point. But raising here makes Shania happy, and if you can flop a monster with a well-disguised hand, well good for you. So at this point (early) it doesn't make much sense to raise with complete garbage, but if you are comfortable with post-flop play raising with respectable holdings is fine. (Just don't go broke with your KTo on a Kxx board.)

It depends on stack size. Yours, of course, but also the villains'. If you or the players in the blinds are sitting at 10 or fewer BB, sometimes stealing with garbage is not such a good idea. If it's you your only bet can be a push, and if it's the villain, you pretty much have to call a push from him. (While pushing 72o on the button with 8BB is fine in many cases, I would not want to be raising shorty with that hand unless I have a read on him as super-tight.)

All things being equal, however, I think the second hour is when: a) the blinds are high enough to be worth winning and there is less chance that a BB will call just cause it's fun see flops; b) Loose calling stations are gone, so there is a chance someone will fold.

Also, don't be afraid to steal from the CO+1. I actually prefer this seat to the button. It is less "obvious" of a steal, and thus less likely to get played back at.
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  #4  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:18 PM
Solitare Solitare is offline
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Default Re: Do you guys have a \"time\" to start to steal?

My rule of thumb -- When the blinds are 5% of my stack.

Lets say I have t1000. I don't usually steal at the 10/15 or 15/30 levels, but would start stealing at the 25/50 level. But I'm flexible. A hand like 98s in CO I'll stael at 10/15, although what I'm really playing for is the possibility of a sweet implied odds situation.

For pure stealing situations, like K6o in the CO for instance, I don't bother until the blinds are 5% of my stack.
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  #5  
Old 12-26-2005, 05:39 PM
ZBTHorton ZBTHorton is offline
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Default Re: Do you guys have a \"time\" to start to steal?

On Stars, I begin stealing as soon as ante's are involved.

On Party, I begin stealing right after the first break.
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  #6  
Old 12-26-2005, 06:59 PM
BPA234 BPA234 is offline
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Default Re: Do you guys have a \"time\" to start to steal?

Here are some reasons why I think "stealing early" is important.

Early in a tournament, I like to raise the blinds from late position with a wide variety of hands. Raising from late will establish a pattern of looseness that you can later exploit when rising blinds force you to tighten up. Also, raising helps camoflague your hand value and your opponents, when they call from the blinds, are likely to mis-read your hand.

I think this has greatest value in the Sunday big field T's. A good number of the players are not very experienced and can get into serious trouble playing out of position.

Finally, when the blinds are low relative to stack size, I want to play as many hands as I can.
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  #7  
Old 12-26-2005, 07:13 PM
ansky451 ansky451 is offline
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Default Re: Do you guys have a \"time\" to start to steal?

Ok, I'm one of those guys who hates when people use a book as a blueprint. For me there is not a set time when I start "stealing." If it's folded to me on the button in the first level, I raise a lot of hands, but they aren't as "steals" really. If you recall Strassas "Hand with the Masters" where he button raised 75s first in, that would be a typical play for me preflop. I wouldn't be raising to steal the blinds, more to build a pot when I'm in position with a well disguised hand. I also might raise 87o, A2s, or K9s etc in that spot.

Probably the most important thing when deciding if I'm going to "steal raise" is the opponents at my table, especially to my left. The table dynamics should dictate to you when you should start raising any 2. When the bubble is approaching, especially in partypoker tournaments, the cards aren't really important. It is entirely about the situation. I say that about partypoker, because for some reason the bubbles tend to be much more weak tight. If I'm up against very tight opponents in the blinds, I'd probably start stealing earlier.

Another huge factor- is the size of your stack. With a huge stack I'm much more likely to splash around with mediocre hands from steal positions.

I know you say you'd be lost without HOH, but thats [censored]. I am where I am today because of the poker books I've read, but I also am not afraid to expand beyond them- and get a little creative. The only way you will ever be able to make critical decisions, and feel comfortable, is when you understand WHY you are making the decisions you are making. I realize you mostly play small stakes tournaments, where deception and unpredicability isn't all that important. But you want to move up eventually right? You want to improve as a player right? Well then get out of the shell and and stop thinking "what would harrington do?"
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  #8  
Old 12-26-2005, 07:13 PM
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Default Re: Do you guys have a \"time\" to start to steal?

I've been wondering this for a while - could someone give the exact definition and origin of the term shania? I see it thrown around a bit on here, and I gather it has something to do with your image, but I'm not sure what it is.
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  #9  
Old 12-26-2005, 07:16 PM
ansky451 ansky451 is offline
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Default Re: Do you guys have a \"time\" to start to steal?

[ QUOTE ]
I've been wondering this for a while - could someone give the exact definition and origin of the term shania? I see it thrown around a bit on here, and I gather it has something to do with your image, but I'm not sure what it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's in the anthology, its basically meta-game. IE if you only raise UTG with AA, people will fold KK behind you. If you raise 23o or AA they will play their kings... It's establishing an image based on your previous actions.
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  #10  
Old 12-26-2005, 10:33 PM
woodguy woodguy is offline
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Default Re: Do you guys have a \"time\" to start to steal?

I raise early, mostly because I really like to raise.

My tournmant PF raising can usually be summed up with a sine wave.



I start raising pretty liberally until I have to show down a "speculative hand" or start getting played back at, then I tighten up and stop raising unless I have the goods, or get moved, or go 3 orbits(ish) without getting involved.

Then, if I haven't been involved much I start ramping up the aggression again, OR, if I've shown down a nice hand or two I ramp up the aggression until I show down a clunker or start getting played back at again......rinse, repeat.

A good example of this was a tourney recently where I had the chip lead pretty well through out the tourney (and won a WSOP seat at the end).

I had to show down 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] after I had raised PF with it over a PR raiser and caller (it was early [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) and I turn a straight to bust a set of J's
Didn't have much trouble getting my AA and KK paid off when they came in the next two orbits, then ran over the table until I started getting played back at.

Good times.

Regards,
Woodguy
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