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#21
11-02-2005, 04:00 AM
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Re: What to do with 11-14xBB??
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] seriously, at these limit's it's like 90% cards. [/ QUOTE ] How wrong you are, at the lower (1-10) I get more value out of how the other players play than I get out of my cards. For example, against certain players, I can raise with 23o and they will only call with AK-AQ, AA-JJ, so I can take their money all day long. Against other players, they will play back and reraise all in with as low as 22, those players you have to be more careful with. To apply one set of rules to every player in a tournament is not getting max value out of your play. I mean, if you can't learn to think for yourself in NL tournament poker, you are never going to be sucessful at it. You might get lucky, but you won't consistently do well. [/ QUOTE ] no offense but LOLOLOLOL. seriously, in the first two-three levels of the tournament, people are very loose with the all-in. and the people that call 3xbb raises pf can seriously have ANY 2 cards. most of the time it's a suited connector or something with huge reverse implied odds (like KTo) or a small pocket pair. Please, don't be condescending. It's not a very good look for you and others. [/ QUOTE ] how are your original question about having 11-14xBB and the first three levels of the tournament related? seriously, just stop. no one is going to answer these questions because they cant be answered. you're making yourself look like an ass by giving attitude to those of us that are trying to explain that to you. 
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#22
11-02-2005, 04:09 AM
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Re: What to do with 11-14xBB??
Well, I tried to be helpful, and didn't think I was being condensending, but if you want to relate to the first 3 levels of a tournament which is not what I thought the post was about, I can't argue with your logic.
In fact, I'll justbe thankful 2+2 has an ignore feature so I don't make the mistake of trying to help you in the future if you are going to respond like this, I was trying to tell you that you cannot apply a set standard to every player in a tournament, it's not going to happen, but its a moot point, I can't help you if you don't want help.
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#23
11-02-2005, 04:10 AM
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Re: What to do with 11-14xBB??
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] seriously, at these limit's it's like 90% cards. [/ QUOTE ] How wrong you are, at the lower (1-10) I get more value out of how the other players play than I get out of my cards. For example, against certain players, I can raise with 23o and they will only call with AK-AQ, AA-JJ, so I can take their money all day long. Against other players, they will play back and reraise all in with as low as 22, those players you have to be more careful with. To apply one set of rules to every player in a tournament is not getting max value out of your play. I mean, if you can't learn to think for yourself in NL tournament poker, you are never going to be sucessful at it. You might get lucky, but you won't consistently do well. [/ QUOTE ] no offense but LOLOLOLOL. seriously, in the first two-three levels of the tournament, people are very loose with the all-in. and the people that call 3xbb raises pf can seriously have ANY 2 cards. most of the time it's a suited connector or something with huge reverse implied odds (like KTo) or a small pocket pair. Please, don't be condescending. It's not a very good look for you and others. [/ QUOTE ] how are your original question about having 11-14xBB and the first three levels of the tournament related? seriously, just stop. no one is going to answer these questions because they cant be answered. you're making yourself look like an ass by giving attitude to those of us that are trying to explain that to you. [/ QUOTE ] it wasn't supposed to be related to the OP. he was stating what he believes to be fact and I'm stating arguments against his beliefs/ideas. betgo, can you explain to me why it's an easy push? how about if you have 22? how about if people will call all-ins with 77+/AJo+?
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#24
11-02-2005, 04:13 AM
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Re: What to do with 11-14xBB??
[ QUOTE ]
Well, I tried to be helpful, and didn't think I was being condensending, but if you want to relate to the first 3 levels of a tournament which is not what I thought the post was about, I can't argue with your logic. In fact, I'll justbe thankful 2+2 has an ignore feature so I don't make the mistake of trying to help you in the future if you are going to respond like this, I was trying to tell you that you cannot apply a set standard to every player in a tournament, it's not going to happen, but its a moot point, I can't help you if you don't want help. [/ QUOTE ] Respond like what? What are you talking about? You believe that people at low-limits are not nuts with all-ins and I disagree just based on the fact on the numerous MTTs I've played at these limits. I mean, it's quite obvious that you can't play robotically when you have a large enough chip stack but 11-14x BB is not a large stack and you need to make a move sometime to continue surviving in the tournament and have chances to accumulate chips.
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#25
11-02-2005, 11:18 AM
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Re: What to do with 11-14xBB??
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Ok 300/600 I have 7200 and get 55 in UTG+1. BB has about 15k and SB has 9k. The majority of the table has 6000+, and will fold to all-in raises unless they pick up 99+/AQo+. But if I raise to 3x, they will call with alot of hands and will not release flush draw/straight draw or top pair on the flop. I've been playing pretty solid. [/ QUOTE ] This one is the other extreme. Been discussed many times before. Easy push. Try starting a new thread with specific questions. [/ QUOTE ] This is not extreme at all. It's a close decision. I fold close decisions.
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#26
11-02-2005, 11:35 AM
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Re: What to do with 11-14xBB??
Yea I agree with Bennies. I don't think 55 UTG+1 with that much room to maneuver is an easy push by any means. I would fold it and not have any regrets.
Generally at this point in tournaments I would only move in with at least pocket 7s and maybe not even then if I think there is a decent chance I will get called. If the table is really loose aggressive and someone w/ 88 or 99 will call me, its an easy fold. There are also situations where I would push 55, but it would have to be at a very weak-tight table with no dominant chip stack that would have a pretty wide range.
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#27
11-02-2005, 11:41 AM
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Re: What to do with 11-14xBB??
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Ok 300/600 I have 7200 and get 55 in UTG+1. BB has about 15k and SB has 9k. The majority of the table has 6000+, and will fold to all-in raises unless they pick up 99+/AQo+. But if I raise to 3x, they will call with alot of hands and will not release flush draw/straight draw or top pair on the flop. I've been playing pretty solid. [/ QUOTE ] This one is the other extreme. Been discussed many times before. Easy push. Try starting a new thread with specific questions. [/ QUOTE ] This is not extreme at all. It's a close decision. I fold close decisions. [/ QUOTE ] The play is chip EV+ because it is not that often someone has 99-AA. You don't mind AK/AQ calling. Since the play is close, you good choose to fold based on strategic considerations. Perhaps you are folding based on my red zone theory to get a lower M to make future pushes easier. I really think pushing is best though. In addition to stealing blinds, there is a good chnace you will get a "coin flip" against over cards and a chance to double up. It is OK to fold in close situations, but saying you always fold close situations seems weak/tight.
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#28
11-02-2005, 11:47 AM
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Re: What to do with 11-14xBB??
[ QUOTE ]
Yea I agree with Bennies. I don't think 55 UTG+1 with that much room to maneuver is an easy push by any means. I would fold it and not have any regrets. Generally at this point in tournaments I would only move in with at least pocket 7s and maybe not even then if I think there is a decent chance I will get called. If the table is really loose aggressive and someone w/ 88 or 99 will call me, its an easy fold. [/ QUOTE ] If no one will call with 66, 77, A6, or A7, what is the difference between pushing with 55 and pushing with 77? There is 20% chance someone will have 88-AA. The other 80% of the time you gain about 1.5xBB by winning the blinds or being called with over cards. Against an over pair, you lose an of 5xBB. So on average you win .2xBB. Do you have strategic reasons for not wanting to gamble, or are you basing your dicisions on fear?
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#29
11-02-2005, 11:55 AM
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Re: What to do with 11-14xBB??
When I was talking about folding 55 I wasn't assuming 66 or 77 would fold.
When I mentioned pushing 77 or above I was referring to a different situation where I had more knowledge about the calling ranges of those to act behind me. All of this being said I would push any pocket pair from MP or later but I'm not pushing 55 UTG+1 without very specific reads.
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#30
11-02-2005, 12:29 PM
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Re: What to do with 11-14xBB??
ATs in late position? = Push
AJs in early position? = Probably Push AJs in late position? = Push AQs in early position? = Push AQs in late position? = Raise/Push AKo/s in early position? = Push AKo/s in late position? = Raise/Push 22-88 in early position? Fold/Limp 22-88 in late position? Push 99-JJ in early position? Push 99-JJ in late position? Raise/Push QQ-AA in early position? Raise QQ=AA in late position? Raise of course, table image/table flow/reads could change all of that. but i think those are my defaults.
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