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  #11  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:39 PM
Joe Tall Joe Tall is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

Since you said:

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I get 3-bet by the button who is not aggro but is probably sick of me raising and might be coming after me light. ..... I check and the BB bets.... ugg.

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I figured the BB called 2 cold or something not reading the action clearly. Check/call is fine.
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  #12  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:40 PM
tpir90036 tpir90036 is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

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c/r the flop in hand 1. It's a lot easier to play from there.

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I hear this a lot too. Unfortunately people are 3-betting that flop with AK and 99 so all I have done is outplay myself into folding the turn.

I am not a fan of any line that involves me folding top pair heads-up.
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  #13  
Old 12-21-2005, 05:41 PM
tpir90036 tpir90036 is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

oops. sorry about that. that's what i get for trying to jam two hands into the same thread.
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  #14  
Old 12-21-2005, 06:34 PM
daisyglaze daisyglaze is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

If they threebet the flop call down.
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  #15  
Old 12-21-2005, 07:50 PM
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

IMO when BB 3 bets, it is usually meaningful. When button 3 bets vs CO raise, it is much less meaningful, it quite often is to get the pot HU, especially given what you mentioned about having a very loose table image. Button 3 betting range could be 88+, AK-AJ,A9s+, KQs or unsuited.
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  #16  
Old 12-21-2005, 08:12 PM
SackUp SackUp is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

I think you are giving the 3-bettors way too much credit. There is no way they are just 99-AA and AQs+. You need to throw in a ton more hands in steal situations.

Hand 1 I either bet, 3bet or c/r. Favoring a c/r.

Hand 2 - cap preflop. How you played it I fold the turn.
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  #17  
Old 12-21-2005, 08:26 PM
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

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Hand 2 I fold the turn.

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Anyone just fold the flop against a non-aggro? I mean how much equity do I really have here vs. a regular dude's 3-betting range?

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Tpir, against a "non-aggro" folding the flop in hand 2 would be the standard play since the probability you are drawing to 3 outs is now too high when compared to the odds you are getting to draw to a pair. Against a more aggressive opponent the probability that you have 6 outs go up, and the probability that you have the best hand goes up thus making a flop peal correct IMO. And against a super aggressive opponent, you should be taking this hand to the river every time and calling whether you improve or not.

I want to talk about Hand 1 now. When you flop top pair in this situation, whether you should call down or play back by checkraising the flop or bet/3betting depends on what kind of range you put the villain on. Naturally the tighter your opponents 3 betting range, the more likely calling down will be the correct strategy. For instance if you put your opponent on a tight range like: TT-AA,AK, and you flop top pair then you should just call down, since if you play back at your opponent youre too likely to end up getting raised back by a better hand that has you drawing thin, or you may induce your opponent to fold a 2 outer, which is also bad for you. In this example checking and calling all the way(and maybe betting the river if your opponent never bluffraises) is the line that will make you the most money or save you the most money in the long run.

However in your hand you raised from the CO, and the Button reraised you, in this situation with no read, you should assume that the button's 3 betting range is now not nearly as tight since he may be putting you on a steal.

In this situation with no reads I would tentatively put the button on this hand range: 77-AA,AK,AQ,AJ,ATs,KQ,KJs. Against this range the probability of you running into a stronger hand is now much lower, and most importantly the probability that the button now has a second best hand that pays you off all the way is much higher.

If you checkraise the flop the villain is likely to pay you off all the way with a hand like KJs,AJ,KQ. Also if the villain has a hand like ATs or AK on this QJx flop, he'll likely go to the river and then fold unimproved.

Now if you play back by checkraising the flop you still face the problem of running into a better hand or inducing your opponent to fold a 2 outer, but you will make enough money from the second best hands/draws that call you down to more than make up for it. So in your hand example on the QJx flop, I would checkraise the flop. But if you had raised UTG and a solid player 3 bet you from any position, I would just call down.

So the tighter your opponents 3 betting range the more apt you should be to just check and call all the way down when you flop something like top pair with a hand like AQ, but the wider your opponent's 3 betting range the more likely you should take an aggressive action to get more money in the pot becuz the odds of him having a second best hand that will pay off all the way goes up.
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  #18  
Old 12-21-2005, 09:35 PM
ActionBob ActionBob is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r the flop in hand 1. It's a lot easier to play from there.

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I hear this a lot too. Unfortunately people are 3-betting that flop with AK and 99 so all I have done is outplay myself into folding the turn.

I am not a fan of any line that involves me folding top pair heads-up.

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This is likely the problem. I wouldn't even think of folding in hand 1 if you check raise and get 3 bet? You're giving your opponent *way* too much credit here.

-ActionBob
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  #19  
Old 12-22-2005, 12:08 AM
tpir90036 tpir90036 is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r the flop in hand 1. It's a lot easier to play from there.

[/ QUOTE ]
I hear this a lot too. Unfortunately people are 3-betting that flop with AK and 99 so all I have done is outplay myself into folding the turn.

I am not a fan of any line that involves me folding top pair heads-up.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is likely the problem. I wouldn't even think of folding in hand 1 if you check raise and get 3 bet? You're giving your opponent *way* too much credit here.

-ActionBob

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Believe me, I had no intention of folding... but that is why I am arguing against getting too aggressive because this seems like a pretty standard way ahead/way behind situation, yes/no?
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  #20  
Old 12-22-2005, 02:33 AM
hobbsmann hobbsmann is offline
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Default Re: I still have trouble when I get 3-bet

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I cap both hands preflop.

Given that you didn't, I bet/3-bet the flop in hand #1 and drop on the flop in hand #2.

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I agree with everything jason has said except I don't like capping preflop in hand 2.
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