Backing into the money: bad idea MTT, but how about STT?

[youtalkfunny]

I've always figured that it's better to go down in flames on the bubble in an effort to get chips and make a run at winning, than going into my shell to lock up a tiny profit, and shortstack myself into very little chance of earning more than that.

That logic is apparent in a MTT, where "just cashing" is only worth about 1/100th of "winning the whole thing".

But in a STT with a 50/30/20 split, I'm starting to think that 20% shouldn't be treated as casually as 1% in a MTT.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Sorry if it's been discussed before.

[BrettP217]

nope... proper play requires you to go ape [censored] on the bubble... so your reasoning is wrong

[splashpot]

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nope... proper play requires you to go ape [censored] on the bubble... so your reasoning is wrong

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No it's not. His reasoning is right. It's is MUCH more valueable to sneak into the money in a sng. Correct bubble play is not always going apeshit. Survival on the bubble is your #1 priority. Bullying comes second.

Depends on the table, no? If everyone is sitting on their hands, waiting to make it ITM, you can steal fairly regularly. If they play back at you, maybe you calm down then.

I wouldnt go "apesh!t," but if they cave at a min raise, go for it.

[45suited]

I think that the buy-in level that you're playing at is relevant to this discussion.

At the lower levels (say 22s and below), surviving in order to allow your opponents to donk themselves out of the money is a more viable strategy than at the higher buy ins.

My statistics for the 11s and 22s actually include more 3rds than 1sts (abnormal for this forum, I believe) but my ROI is very high at the low buy-ins, partially due to hanging on for many ITM finishes that my opponents handed to me with their stupid bubble play.

[splashpot]

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Depends on the table, no? If everyone is sitting on their hands, waiting to make it ITM, you can steal fairly regularly. If they play back at you, maybe you calm down then.

I wouldnt go "apesh!t," but if they cave at a min raise, go for it.

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Yes, you're right. As I said, bubble play is not always the same. But it still holds true that survival is your first and most important priority.

OP was asking if squeaking into the money is a good way to think. Correct me if I misunderstand him, but I think he was asking if it's better to avoid big gambles on the bubble in hopes of sneaking into the money. It is.

I think we're agreed. Yeah, maybe I missed that point - re: gambling. As I qualified, I wouldn't go "apesh!t" on the bubble, but pick my spots.

But I don't think the OP should pass on opportunities to pick up some blinds, if everybody is gagging.

You can try to squeak in if your stack is at least 3x bigger than of any player(s) who you need to bust out to make it into the dough. Otherwise there's a danger that one or more of the "desperados" will get lucky and double up. I've lost a number of SnG's trying to squeak into the money.

[raptor517]

heres my thoughts.. in the bigger buyins, ie, the step 5 minis and higher, it is ESSENTIAL to get first because of the payout structure. anything else is nigh meaningless. also, the bubble is a ton softer. in the s5 mini and s4 higher, for 4th and 5th you dont even get a buyin back, and for 3rd you only get about 50% more than your buyin, NOT INCLUDING RAKE. this is insane to me. so, first is key still. also, most people pretty much know how to play, and arent getting too outta line.. but if you can pick the people that are, you can make a few calls you wouldnt ordinarily in order to bump up your chance of first. remember, if you can get 2% higher first and 3% lower 2nd or 3rd, yer making a TON more.

in the 215s.. i actually dont hate not going nuts itm early or on the bubble hwen you dont need to. obvoiusly take advantage of all those very +Ev pushes and make effective use of being the big stack.. but when yer not, its ok to sit back a bit as everyone calls and pushes too many hands as it is. thats my little experience from the last 600 or so 215s ive played. just some thoughts. holla

[youtalkfunny]

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OP was asking if squeaking into the money is a good way to think. Correct me if I misunderstand him, but I think he was asking if it's better to avoid big gambles on the bubble in hopes of sneaking into the money. It is.

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To be clear, I've always felt squeaking into the money in MTT was a terrible way to play.

I brought this attitude with me to STT, and started to think it was wrong. Sounds like most of you agree.

I hadn't played STT's in a long time. I started dabbling with them again, and was doing very well, so I decided to focus on them for a while. I played ten $20+2's last night, and had three 4th-place finishes, which I thought was too many, given my stack sizes and fishiness of opponents.

I was treating 3rd place money with disdain, like it was next to nothing, the way I would treat squeaking into a MTT payday. But after starting out 0-for-4, a couple of 3rd's really made an impact on my bottom line, and I started to consider that I may be in error.

Great discussion, thank you all.