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  #1  
Old 10-26-2005, 05:26 PM
roundhouse roundhouse is offline
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Default Shorthanded O8 hand, paired board, shortstacked opponent

O8 3/6 6-max, four-handed at the time. I'm in the BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Fold, fold, SB with only $19 in front of him completes, I raise, call.

Flop comes 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4SB)
SB bets, I call.

Turn comes T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3BB)
SB bets, I call.

River comes T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5BB)
SB bets (leaving him with $1), I call.


Question 1 - how's my play? All constructive criticism greatly appreciated (I have my own criticism, but it seems more sporting to let you guys rip me up).

Question 2 - assuming you know nothing else about your opponent, what is your up-front expectation of him given he's starting the hand with less than four BB?

Question 3 - given your answer to 1 and 2, would you play any different if the opponent was normally stacked (again assuming you have no other info on him)?

RH
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  #2  
Old 10-26-2005, 06:47 PM
sy_or_bust sy_or_bust is offline
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Default Re: Shorthanded O8 hand, paired board, shortstacked opponent

In this situation your hand is very strong, with great scooping chances. With shortstacked SB leading into you, it's fine to just call down, betting when checked to, with the plan to get all his money into the pot.

[ QUOTE ]
assuming you know nothing else about your opponent, what is your up-front expectation of him given he's starting the hand with less than four BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not a strong player, or a smart one. Probably prone to getting 'all-in' with a large range postflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Question 3 - given your answer to 1 and 2, would you play any different if the opponent was normally stacked (again assuming you have no other info on him)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Raise the flop. There's too much value to play for way ahead / way behind when you can extract more bets postflop. Those times you are 3-bet, you can call, planning to raise a made low on the turn/river, folding the river UI.
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  #3  
Old 10-26-2005, 07:06 PM
Wintermute Wintermute is offline
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Default Re: Shorthanded O8 hand, paired board, shortstacked opponent

I like it the whole way. Given that he's a short stack, you're often ahead here, so just employ the rule of thumb "never disturb your enemy when he's making a mistake" and just call every street. Raising will only push him off a hand that you beat, and if you are behind, drawing to your low cheaply is best.
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  #4  
Old 10-27-2005, 08:50 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: Shorthanded O8 hand, paired board, shortstacked opponent

[ QUOTE ]
Question 1 - how's my play?

[/ QUOTE ]

RH - Seems all right to me.

[ QUOTE ]
Question 2 - assuming you know nothing else about your opponent, what is your up-front expectation of him given he's starting the hand with less than four BB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Players with a small stack will often tend to take bigger chances than they would with more chips. They’ll often go “all-in” with poor hands.

[ QUOTE ]
Question 3 - given your answer to 1 and 2, would you play any different if the opponent was normally stacked (again assuming you have no other info on him)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. I'd fold to the bet on the flop.

Buzz
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  #5  
Old 10-29-2005, 04:53 PM
benwood benwood is offline
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Default Re: Shorthanded O8 hand, paired board, shortstacked opponent

Buzz, I don't understand the fold against a player with sufficient chips since he did not raise pre-flop & likely may have raised on the flop with a 7 in his hand. It seems like you have a better chance to get 1/2 or more than he does. If you would clarify this for me , I would appreciate it. Thanks. Ben.
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  #6  
Old 10-29-2005, 05:57 PM
daisyglaze daisyglaze is offline
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Default Re: Shorthanded O8 hand, paired board, shortstacked opponent

Do you realize that he has kings? Folding would be terrible.
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  #7  
Old 10-30-2005, 05:16 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: Shorthanded O8 hand, paired board, shortstacked opponent

[ QUOTE ]
Buzz, I don't understand the fold against a player with sufficient chips since he did not raise pre-flop & likely may have raised on the flop with a 7 in his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ben - He didn't raise on the flop. He bet the flop. Are you thinking he would have check-raised with a seven, rather than straightforwardly betting the flop?

If so, I think that's a strong possibility. Kind of depends on a whole bunch of stuff, IMHO.

Maybe I shouldn't have tried to answer Roundhouse's original question about how I'd play differently against an opponent who was not short stacked. But my answer was in the context of the difference between playing against a short stacked opponent as opposed to an opponent who was not short stacked. (I'd be more likely to call an opponent with a short stack).

Let me rephrase my original answer.

Change "Yes. <font color="red">I'd fold</font> to the bet on the flop." to "Yes, <font color="blue">I might fold</font> to the bet on the flop."

Maybe I shouldn't have answered the question at all, because how I'd play really depends on a whole bunch of stuff. (But I'd still be more likely to call an opponent with a short stack).

What would I actually do if holding the same hand and facing the same flop in the same short handed situation (but not in comparison to how I'd play against a short stack)?

I don't know. It depends. If I thought SB had a seven, I'd fold. If I thought SB was bluffing, I'd call, rather than raise. (I wouldn't raise because I'd hate to get re-raised here and would fully expect to get re-raised whether SB was bluffing or not).

I wouldn't much like calling SB's 2nd round bet, but if I thought SB was bluffing, I'd probably call rather than raise hoping SB would bet the 3rd round too. Then what I might do would depend somewhat on the turn card and somewhat on what I though SB was doing.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like you have a better chance to get 1/2 or more than he does.

[/ QUOTE ]

If SB doesn't have a seven you do, but if SB does have a seven, you don't.

IMHO, SB's 2nd round bet in context with his first round call of Hero's raise, represents 7XYZ (or 66XY). Doesn't mean that's what SB holds. (SB might bluff or semi-bluff here).

Since Hero raised the first round, unless Hero always raises, Hero seems less likely to have a seven than if Hero had not raised. An alert SB, even a normally not particularly aggressive SB, might take advantage of the expectation Hero doesn't have a seven and bluff this flop, representing a seven (because Hero's first round raise tends to somewhat limit the possibilities of his hand).

If Hero plays every hand and always raises, then it would be harder to come to this conclusion. But if Hero uses some selectivity and generally raises with nice starting hands, then Hero is marked for a high probability of having a hand without a seven.

It's hard to answer a general question about what to do with a hand if this or that happens. It obviously depends not only on the situation and the particular opponent involved, but also on how other hands have been played.

Buzz
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  #8  
Old 10-30-2005, 06:52 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: Shorthanded O8 hand, paired board, shortstacked opponent

[ QUOTE ]
Do you realize that he has kings?

[/ QUOTE ]

daisyglaze - Yes. Plus he has the 2nd nut low draw. Plus he has a back-door nut flush draw. In addition, Hero has favorable position, very important for heads-up play.

Indeed, Hero's hand is normally a very good heads-up hand. And this particular flop, while horrid for the hand in a full game, is actually good for one-on-one play. (That's my opinion).

But SB has bet this flop.

Since SB has bet this flop there's a distinct possibility SB has a seven, and if so, SB is about a two to one favorite. (SB could also be bluffing, semi-bluffing, purely stupid, or something else).

[ QUOTE ]
Folding would be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have been more careful with my exact phrasing in my original response to Roundhouse. I tried to keep it brief and answer in the context of the post. You're taking it out of context.

(I was comparing play against a short stack to play against someone without a short stack, and should have made that clearer. Also see my response to Ben in this thread for an amended response to Rounhouse's question.)

[ QUOTE ]
Folding would be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well... folding would not necessarily be "terrible," in my humble opinion. But I agree folding would not be the best option after many, maybe most, SBs bet this flop.

SB might not actually have a seven but I think that's what SB's second round bet represents. And if SB does have a seven, I'd rather not contest the pot. It's just not worth it.

Does SB have a seven? That is the question!

I wouldn't much like folding Hero's fine one-on-one hand to a second round bet from SB, because SB could be bluffing, semi-bluffing, or simply playing poorly. And the flop is not horrid for Hero's hand.

I don't like folding, but I don't like chasing either, and a raise seems rash. (I’d hate getting re-raised, the most likely scenario whether or not SB has a seven, assuming SB is a skilled opponent).

I don't think A3KKs has a very good chance to scoop after SB bets this flop. On the other hand, if SB has a seven, SB will often scoop and will almost always with for high. (I just simulated that to double check it and it checks).

If SB does have a seven, Hero should expect a bet from SB on the 3rd and 4th betting rounds (depending a bit on the actual cards involved and how things go). For example, in the case of two tens, as here, if Hero calls the flop bet, then Hero will be stuck calling the turn bet, and then Hero will be stuck calling the river bet.

In so doing, Hero will be risking his chips mostly hoping to get them back (assuming SB has a seven).

Hero will be hoping for a king or a low on the turn, and if Hero does make a low on the turn, will be hoping for a king on the river - and also hoping to not get counterfeited on the river. Hero is only going to see a king on the turn or river roughly one time out of eleven. (There are also some other possibilities for high for Hero, mainly the back-door flush draw - but since there’s already a pair on the board, Hero actually will lose more often than win with a back-door flush, assuming SB has a seven). Assuming SB has a seven, when things do work out favorably for Hero, Hero will mostly get his own chips back by winning low.

[ QUOTE ]
Folding would be terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are referring to games where SB is going to bet this flop regardless of the cards in his/her hand (especially after Hero has indicated, with the pre-flop raise, that he/she probably does not have a seven), then I agree folding is not as good an option as raising.

Or maybe I'm missing something that seems obvious to you.

But at this point folding doesn't necessarily seem "terrible" to me, depending on the circumstances.

I do appreciate your opinion. I assume you have a rational basis for your opinion. It would be helpful to me (and probably others) if you were able to formulate the reason(s) for your opinion.

You really did take my remark out of context. (But I probably should have made the context clearer).

Buzz
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  #9  
Old 11-01-2005, 11:57 PM
benwood benwood is offline
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Default Re: Shorthanded O8 hand, paired board, shortstacked opponent

Correction: In my original post I meant to say check-raise instead of raise. It seems to me that the correct line here is very player dependent.
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  #10  
Old 11-02-2005, 10:28 PM
daisyglaze daisyglaze is offline
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Default Re: Shorthanded O8 hand, paired board, shortstacked opponent

Ok I see what you meant in your post and I did take it out of context.
My reason for hating a fold is that your op's hand is strong, and probably has a decent chance of escaping with a low if behind. Assuming he has a seven because he bets allows you to be run over by an agressive opponent. You will not have a better hand than big overpair + low draw very often on this flop.
Against someone who must have a seven or a full house, yeah I'd fold. That is not my default assumption.
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