Betting the river after being raised on the turn.

[sean c]

Okay just something i have been thinking about. Villian in this hand is very aggressive and good.

Party 2/4. This is also from my morning session yesterday this table is tight and so so aggressive post flop.

Pre flop: Folds to MP player who open raises, folds to me in the CO and i 3-bet AK off, button(villian) cold calls three, folds to mp and he calls.

Flop(3 players 10.5sb): A10x rainbow
MP checks, i bet, button calls and mp folds.

Turn(2 players 6.25bb): a blank
I bet, button insta raises and i call.

River(2 players 10.25bb): another low blank
Hero?

I guess my main question is anybody betting the river after being raised on the turn with a TPTK type hand? Maybe not this one but lets say there were more draws out that didn't get there on the river. How often are we getting raised for a free showdown? How small does the pot have to be before we can bet/fold the river? Even if it is a free showdown play is there even any value in a river bet?

I pretty much just check/call in these spots and if i have a hand strong enough to bet the river i am probably 3-betting the turn. Anyway i just thought i would throw this out and see what everyone thinks.

[crunchy1]

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Villian in this hand is very aggressive and good.

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I think it's really important to put your Villian on a hand range. Since he's good AND aggressive I'm having a hard time finding many hands that he's cold-calling 3-bets with before the flop.

You'd figure him to cap with AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ. I suppose he might cold-call with a smaller pair depending on his read of the first raiser and the blinds; let's say, TT-88(77). He also might cold-call AQ/AJ/AT - especially if he's a little too loose and/or they're suited. Is he calling 3-bets cold with KQs/KJs?

I'm interested to hear what you're 3-bet cold-calling range is for this player. I also think that once you determine it we're going to see that we probably should've been 3-betting the turn and leading the river OR calling the turn raise and betting the river. I think the difference in these two possible lines lies in how loose your Villian is in regards to seeing showdowns.

[fyodor]

I would guess he has either ATs or a mid pair that = one of the x's for a set or maybe even a set of tens. If he is good I don't see him raising with anything you beat. Sounds like the only draw was a gutshot to broadway.

There is no way I can check fold TPTK at 2/4 but that just might be the correct move. For sure you can bet fold to a raise.

btw MP stands for Middle Player so 'MP player' is redundant.

right after I posted I realized most people probably read MP as Mid Position so please ignore that part. Maybe it's just me that reads it Mid Player.

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Villian in this hand is very aggressive and good.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's really important to put your Villian on a hand range. Since he's good AND aggressive I'm having a hard time finding many hands that he's cold-calling 3-bets with before the flop.

You'd figure him to cap with AK, AA, KK, QQ, JJ. I suppose he might cold-call with a smaller pair depending on his read of the first raiser and the blinds; let's say, TT-88(77). He also might cold-call AQ/AJ/AT - especially if he's a little too loose and/or they're suited. Is he calling 3-bets cold with KQs/KJs?

I'm interested to hear what you're 3-bet cold-calling range is for this player. I also think that once you determine it we're going to see that we probably should've been 3-betting the turn and leading the river OR calling the turn raise and betting the river. I think the difference in these two possible lines lies in how loose your Villian is in regards to seeing showdowns.

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His cold call threw me big time. The only hands i excluded were AA-QQ and AK. He didn't seem tricky and being multi way i doubt he has these holdings. I would say QQ-88, AQs-ATs, KQs maybe but that was about it. Villian hasn't seen many showdowns he has won most pots uncontested.

[crunchy1]

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His cold call threw me big time. The only hands i excluded were AA-QQ and AK. He didn't seem tricky and being multi way i doubt he has these holdings. I would say QQ-88, AQs-ATs, KQs maybe but that was about it. Villian hasn't seen many showdowns he has won most pots uncontested.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds about right. Against this range of hands our equity is so huge that I really think we need to be discussing how best to get one extra bet out of this player following his turn raise.

We're either 3-betting the turn or donk betting the river. I don't think you've given us enough information about Villian to make a determination on which line is better. Or, possibly, neither line is actually better than the other regardless of any additional information.

[belloc]

My first thought in situations like this (flop call, turn bet on apparent blank) is that he either flopped a set or hit one on the turn, or that he made two pair on the turn.

The preflop coldcall makes me think of 77-JJ, but it's still weird. Maybe it's something toward the lower end of that (77-ish), or maybe an AXs and he really wanted to play the hand, but wanted to play it more multiway, and he called hoping the blinds would get excited about the big pot and call. I see this more in live play than online, but it's at least possible.

What exactly was the turn card? Is it possible that he was playing AXs, and made aces up on the turn? Or made a set on the turn?

[sean c]

[ QUOTE ]
My first thought in situations like this (flop call, turn bet on apparent blank) is that he either flopped a set or hit one on the turn, or that he made two pair on the turn.

The preflop coldcall makes me think of 77-JJ, but it's still weird. Maybe it's something toward the lower end of that (77-ish), or maybe an AXs and he really wanted to play the hand, but wanted to play it more multiway, and he called hoping the blinds would get excited about the big pot and call. I see this more in live play than online, but it's at least possible.

What exactly was the turn card? Is it possible that he was playing AXs, and made aces up on the turn? Or made a set on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Belloc he flopped a set of tens. I don't remember the turn and river cards.