2-4 Party JJ hand - Page 2

DeathDonkey · #11 02-21-2005, 02:39 AM

So it is the fact that we are not confident we have the best hand then, as I originally guessed? I don't see the point in raising a draw heavy flop with no way to fold out the others even if we do have the best hand. In this case wouldn't the best play be then to call on the flop and then either call or fold on the turn if we are drawing to 2 outs as you suggest?

If you are subtly advocating a call on the flop then I agree, but there isn't much point in a flop raise here.

-DeathDonkey

LoaferGee12 · #12 02-21-2005, 02:47 AM

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So it is the fact that we are not confident we have the best hand then, as I originally guessed? I don't see the point in raising a draw heavy flop with no way to fold out the others even if we do have the best hand. In this case wouldn't the best play be then to call on the flop and then either call or fold on the turn if we are drawing to 2 outs as you suggest?

If you are subtly advocating a call on the flop then I agree, but there isn't much point in a flop raise here.

-DeathDonkey

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I think the raise on the flop is for both value and information. If he 3-bets, then I think we can call and safely muck on the turn. If he just calls, then we likely have the best hand are therefore getting value out of it.

DeathDonkey · #13 02-21-2005, 03:00 AM

Seeing whether he bets a turn blank would pretty much accomplish the same thing. How many times do you see someone bet the turn with AK unimproved into 3 opponents (for example).

-DeathDonkey

Shillx · #14 02-21-2005, 03:04 AM

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So it is the fact that we are not confident we have the best hand then, as I originally guessed? I don't see the point in raising a draw heavy flop with no way to fold out the others even if we do have the best hand. In this case wouldn't the best play be then to call on the flop and then either call or fold on the turn if we are drawing to 2 outs as you suggest?

If you are subtly advocating a call on the flop then I agree, but there isn't much point in a flop raise here.

-DeathDonkey

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I think the raise on the flop is for both value and information. If he 3-bets, then I think we can call and safely muck on the turn. If he just calls, then we likely have the best hand are therefore getting value out of it.

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The problem with this is that it might make the pot so big that you will have to call the turn. If everyone calls the 3-bet on the flop we are looking at like 19:1 on the turn. Calling the flop and then folding the turn looks like the best line to me.

Brad

LoaferGee12 · #15 02-21-2005, 03:19 AM

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So it is the fact that we are not confident we have the best hand then, as I originally guessed? I don't see the point in raising a draw heavy flop with no way to fold out the others even if we do have the best hand. In this case wouldn't the best play be then to call on the flop and then either call or fold on the turn if we are drawing to 2 outs as you suggest?

If you are subtly advocating a call on the flop then I agree, but there isn't much point in a flop raise here.

-DeathDonkey

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I think the raise on the flop is for both value and information. If he 3-bets, then I think we can call and safely muck on the turn. If he just calls, then we likely have the best hand are therefore getting value out of it.

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The problem with this is that it might make the pot so big that you will have to call the turn. If everyone calls the 3-bet on the flop we are looking at like 19:1 on the turn. Calling the flop and then folding the turn looks like the best line to me.

Brad

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Would this be different if say, only 1 of the MP called and the other folded?

syphlix · #16 02-21-2005, 04:44 AM

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So it is the fact that we are not confident we have the best hand then, as I originally guessed? I don't see the point in raising a draw heavy flop with no way to fold out the others even if we do have the best hand. In this case wouldn't the best play be then to call on the flop and then either call or fold on the turn if we are drawing to 2 outs as you suggest?

If you are subtly advocating a call on the flop then I agree, but there isn't much point in a flop raise here.

-DeathDonkey

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I think the raise on the flop is for both value and information. If he 3-bets, then I think we can call and safely muck on the turn. If he just calls, then we likely have the best hand are therefore getting value out of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with this is that it might make the pot so big that you will have to call the turn. If everyone calls the 3-bet on the flop we are looking at like 19:1 on the turn. Calling the flop and then folding the turn looks like the best line to me.

Brad

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i don't understand "Calling the flop and then folding the turn"

how can you do this when no one showed any kind of agression to the UTG+1 on the flop?... is this just bc he capped PF?... could he not have TT/JJ just as easily as he could have QQ-AA?... or how bout something retarded like AKs that he just leads until raised w/ (obviously the river lead shows he prob doesn't have that... but we're talkin bout the flop/turn here so we don't know that yet)...

i just don't see how you can fold an overpair to the board when everyone is just calling crap just cuz someone keeps leading...

and reads woulda helped a lot here too...

private joker · #17 02-21-2005, 05:10 AM

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i don't understand "Calling the flop and then folding the turn"

how can you do this when no one showed any kind of agression to the UTG+1 on the flop?\

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Slow down and read closer. Brad said call the flop and fold the turn IF Hero raises and UTG 3-bets the flop.

DeathDonkey · #18 02-21-2005, 05:15 AM

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TT/JJ just as easily as he could have QQ-AA?...

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Actually no. 18:7 he has QQ-AA.

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i just don't see how you can fold an overpair to the board when everyone is just calling crap just cuz someone keeps leading...

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This first level thinking will get you by at micro stakes but eventually you need to go a little deeper. An unknown caps preflop from UTG and then keeps betting into you. We may have an overpair but we can't beat much that he holds.

-DeathDonkey

DeathDonkey · #19 02-21-2005, 05:17 AM

I don't think he said/meant to say this. I think he wanted to just call the flop and fold the turn if bet into again.

-DeathDonkey

Michael Davis · #20 02-21-2005, 05:18 AM

Either just call the turn or fold the river. Really, you're in real trouble on the turn. You're really praying he has AK of one of two suits.

-Michael