The Crusades

[MMMMMM]

Cyrus, I don't read Ayn Rand; sorry to disappoint. I haven't really read Orianna Fallaci either, but I strongly suspect some folks would benefit from reading more of ANY author who is firmly against totalitarianism/fascism.

Also, whatever the art, etc. which the 11th century produced has NOTHING to do with whether or not Islam is an absolutist ideology.

You guys just don't realize the inherent evils of fascism, absloutist ideology, totalitarianism, etc.--that's the only explanation I can come up with for why you guys don't TOTALLY PAN systems which are based on such things.

Well, to each his own. You enjoy your croissants; I'll take freedom any day over the biggest croissant in ther world. Even with cheese.

Freedom is FAR more important than Art.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
You guys just don't realize the inherent evils of fascism, absloutist ideology, totalitarianism, etc.--that's the only explanation I can come up with for why you guys don't TOTALLY PAN systems which are based on such things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe it's just that you're wrong. That's another explanation you should have come up with.

Failing to might indicate some other, larger problems. I'll let Nuts4Dawgs elaborate.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
DVaut1, it has nothing to do with "circular logic." Rather, it has everything to do with what is contained in the Koran (and somewhat with how Mohammed chose to live his life). The Koran contains specific injunctions and instructions, and if these are followed, the result is an authoritarian/religious society and government.

[/ QUOTE ]



Uh huh...go on, I'm listening oh-so-closely ...

Wait, I'll have to get back to you on this. Phil Hellmuth is giving a poker etiquette lesson on TV (about how to take bad beats) that I really want to catch, given how much credence, credibility, and authority he has on the subject.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah but you're NOT listening. As I recall, we went over this in a separate thread or two, and I provided examples and gave reading recommendations and you weren't really interested in much but restating your own point of view and questioning mine. As I noted before, the Muslim imams and scholars who have been immersed in Islam their entire lives agree with me on these things, and I've even provided examples--as well as examples of the religious POV's of bin-Laden anbd Zarqawi, in their own words--but based on your prior responses I don't think you are truly interested. No big deal; I don't care if you are interested or not. If you are, listen to what the imams say, even today, and you'll see I'm reporting accurately. Not that you care, though.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah but you're NOT listening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Consider other possibilities.

There's certainly a chance that everyone who doesn't agree with you just isn't listening. But I think that would rule out some other important possibilites you might do well to consider -- possibilities that I think are frankly much more likely.

[ QUOTE ]
As I recall, we went over this in a separate thread or two, and I provided examples and gave reading recommendations and you weren't really interested in much but restating your own point of view and questioning mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes, yes, your views will be questioned. It's not that I wasn't interested in what you had to say. In fact, I was -- which is why I questioned you. Think about it.

[ QUOTE ]
As I noted before, the Muslim imams and scholars who have been immersed in Islam their entire lives agree with me on these things,

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have to remember this one -- next time someone disagrees with me, just claim the authorities in-the-know concur with whatever I have to say. Accept such things prima facie. If you question me, you're clearly not listening.

[ QUOTE ]
and I've even provided examples--as well as examples of the religious POV's of bin-Laden anbd Zarqawi, in their own words--

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as I provided, for you, in Paul Hill's own words, why murderous abortion-doctor-killers are inspiried by the inherent vicious and violent nature of the Christian bible.

You weren't convinced?

[ QUOTE ]
but based on your prior responses I don't think you are truly interested.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am.

[ QUOTE ]
listen to what the imams say, even today, and you'll see I'm reporting accurately.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) I have listened.
2) I don't think you're reporting accurately. There are other possibilites as to why I don't agree with you, and why I don't think you're reporting accurately, that don't revolve around me not listening.

Again, think it over.

[ QUOTE ]
And Nut4Dawgs dares to whine about my high perch!


[/ QUOTE ]


I've been accused of a lot of things, Sparky, but whining has never, ever been one of them.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

I was under the impression that most of the crusaders borrowed money from the Jews at home to finance their crusades, banking on the fact that they would get rich in the Holy Land and be able to easily pay off their debts. Their primary purpose of going on the crusade was just that. Since most did not get rich, they came back with great debts to the Jews which further increased European anti-Semitism.

Did the documentary mention this at all?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You guys just don't realize the inherent evils of fascism, absloutist ideology, totalitarianism, etc.--that's the only explanation I can come up with for why you guys don't TOTALLY PAN systems which are based on such things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe it's just that you're wrong. That's another explanation you should have come up with.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the one hand, DVault1, he may be right. Fascism, absolutist ideology, and totalitarianism are evil. According you to, however, he's wrong. Which means you believe fascism, absolutiist ideology, and totalitarianism are good.

I'm guessing you have dreadlocks and wear "Free Leonard Peltier" T-shirts. Do you just like being different?

[Tuco]

[ QUOTE ]
Did the documentary mention this at all?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, im pretty sure it did. Although I would have to watch it again to see the context in which it was presented.

I've watched the first two of five and plan on watching 3 and 4 tonite. God bless Usenet!

Tuco.

[DVaut1]

[ QUOTE ]
On the one hand, DVault1, he may be right. Fascism, absolutist ideology, and totalitarianism are evil. According you to, however, he's wrong. Which means you believe fascism, absolutiist ideology, and totalitarianism are good.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no - this is important. I think he's wrong. I'm pretty damn certain he's wrong. But I'm totally willing to admit he might be right -- so much so that I don't attribute his not agreeing with me to an inability or an unwillingness to listen.

Huge difference. It's like the difference, in tournament poker, between raising all-in and calling an all-in. And there's a reason why the distinction is important.

And for the record, I don't disagree that totalitarianism and fascism are evil (I have some reservations calling all absolutists ideologies evil; I'm absolutely sure murder is wrong, for instance).

What I do disagree with, and what I'm fairly certain M is wrong about, is that Islamic states have a natural or inherent tendency to be evil, totalitarian, or fascistic.

And I'm even more certain that even if they are, that it's not due to anything regarding the nature of Islam.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing you have dreadlocks and wear "Free Leonard Peltier" T-shirts. Do you just like being different?

[/ QUOTE ]

lol

No, I don't have dredlocks, nor do I wear 'Free Leonard Peltier' t-shirt.

I don't necessarily think there's any inherent value in 'being different'. Certainly, such things are dependent on the circumstances.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't really read Orianna Fallaci either.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let me understand this : Did you just recommend an author you have NOT read?

This would be brilliant, even by your standards...