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  #1  
Old 11-03-2005, 08:53 AM
AKsPRO AKsPRO is offline
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Default Really cant understand

Why 6,7,8 are so bad? Yes, I dont like 9 in my hand. But, for example, A267 and A278 can make two pair or straight additionally to your low. It is harder to hit two pairs AND low with A2KT, isnt it?
So, why 6,7,8 are "dead omaha/8 cards"? Any comments are greatly appreciated
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  #2  
Old 11-03-2005, 09:17 AM
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Default Re: Really cant understand

I'd be interested in seeing other replies as well but A267 and A278 are pretty good hands in my experience for the reasons you gave that if you do make your nut low you have a good chance at 2 pairs or a straight. The one drawback I see is that having the cards in your hand decreases your odds of actually hitting a nut low draw.
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  #3  
Old 11-03-2005, 10:33 AM
steamboatin steamboatin is offline
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Default Re: Really cant understand

I am new to the game also but two pair isn't much of a high hand in this game and if you make the nut straight, it is almost a certainty that you only get half the pot because the lower straight cards make low hands.

Omaha/8 is a game where you play to the nuts. If you aren't drawing to the nuts, you are very likely to be drawing dead.

If your ace is suited with one of your hole cards, that makes it better. If your hand is rainbow then you are weak on both ends. The A2 is easily counterfitted and you are very weak for the high hand.

You basically have a weak draw to half the pot and that is not a very profitable posistion.
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  #4  
Old 11-03-2005, 11:11 AM
Mendacious Mendacious is offline
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Default Re: Really cant understand

A267 and A278 are fine with me, especially on a passive table or in position on an aggressive table. I think it is a mistake to worry about being quartered until you have seen the flop, unless there has been a pot raise, or a re-raise.
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  #5  
Old 11-03-2005, 11:51 AM
hachkc hachkc is offline
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Default Re: Really cant understand

Assuming A267.

For a low, A2 is fine and the 67 offers very limited protection if you get counterfeited on the river but probably not earlier.

For a high, this is where you hand hurts. If the A is suited, no problem you can even raise this preflop depending on position and table dynamics. If the A isn't suited, definitely a limping hand because you have a relatively unprotected low and not much else.

The problem with middle cards (6789) is they typically don't help your low hand and they can easilly be beat out by higher cards for the high. Most str8's that need middle cards are either splitting with a low or out kicked by a higher str8. As for middle card flushes, flush your money down a toilet; its less painful. Trying for a middle card boats is also not a winning proposition. Middle cards with A2 unsuited or A3 suited are hands that I'll limp with but be prepared to muck them on a bad flop or a lot of action.

Remember, you want to ideally play hands than can scoop and the hands that do this multiple ways. Take for example this hand which is very strong:

A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Almost every card here works with every other card for either a high or a low; The only exception here is K4. Notice, there are no middle cards.

For a low: A2, A4, 24
For a high: straights (A2,A4,24,AK), flushes (A4,K2) plus 2 highest cards (AK).
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  #6  
Old 11-03-2005, 12:06 PM
Cooker Cooker is offline
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Default Re: Really cant understand

See this post for the dangers of the 5-9. The basic reason is that they rarely add significant high or low value to your hand. Sure A267 is usually playable, but you are usually going to have to make a nut low draw and straight draw on the flop to play this hand strongly. A flop that gives you a nut low and 2 pair is usually going to have to dodge straight draws to maintain a scoop, so this isn't terribly strong. With this hand, you need a nut low for security and then a really strong (2 pair or better) high hand in order to play it very strongly. A hand like AKT2 can also make nut lows and big one pair hands for high that might quarter or scoop. These hands are also playable on many all high flops and are also usually playabe with 2 high card flops. A hand like AKT2 just connects with so many more flops it should be clear that it is way better preflop than A267, which has only one advantage that it is easier to make a nut low with 2 pair.
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  #7  
Old 11-03-2005, 08:21 PM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: Really cant understand

[ QUOTE ]
Why 6,7,8 are so bad?

[/ QUOTE ]

AKsPRO - It's more that they're not so good than they're so bad.

Looking at it one way, all cards add value to your hand. Those particular cards (6,7,8) don't add as much value as most other cards.

Clearly aces add the most value. Aces work with more other cards to make a winning two card combination than any other card.

Next are wheel cards and honor cards. In general, the lower the wheel cards the better and the higher the honor cards, the better.

(Honor cards are aces, kings, queens, jacks and tens. It's an old bridge term.)

And that leaves the middle cards (sixes, sevens, eights, and nines) for last. Middle cards don't make as many winning two-card combinations with as many other cards as the other cards in the deck.

Actually, I think sixes can be nice in a pot limit game when you have the two nut low cards. But sevens, eights, and nines? Yuk. And in a limit game, I think sixes may have less value than in a pot limit game.

[ QUOTE ]
It is harder to hit two pairs AND low with A2KT, isnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You make more lows with A278 than with A2KT. But unless you're playing heads-up, the low you make with A7, A8, 27, 28, or 78 is not usually a very good low. In a limit game, it's usually a loser. And in the meanwhile, the presence of a seven or eight in your hand makes it more difficult for the board to enable the nut low for your ace-deuce combo.

I haven't run the sims, but probably one-on-one I'd rather have A2K8 than A2KT. Well... O.K., I was curious and just ran the sims (both against random hands).

Nope. I have A2TKn about 56 to 44 against random cards and
A28Kn about 54 to 46 against random cards (10000 runs each, using Wilson). Thatís for heads-up play. Itís close, but I like A2TKn better than A28Kn, even for heads-up play. Itís a moot point because Iíll be going for a steal with both of them, heads-up, and also defending with both of them, heads-up.

(In a full, limit game, A2TKn is substantially better than A28Kn).

Just my opinion.

Buzz
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  #8  
Old 11-04-2005, 04:36 AM
AKsPRO AKsPRO is offline
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Default Re: Really cant understand

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It is harder to hit two pairs AND low with A2KT, isnt it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. You make more lows with A278 than with A2KT. But unless you're playing heads-up, the low you make with A7, A8, 27, 28, or 78 is not usually a very good low. In a limit game, it's usually a loser.


[/ QUOTE ]
My idea is not to make the low with A7,A8,27...
When you hit the flop with possible low (78Q, 356 and so on), those middle cards add you much more value for your A2 than high cards like KT or even JJ.Yes once in a while you hit 78J for you A2JJ, but this is so rarely.
To clarify, Im talking about LO8, 10 or 9 handed. More comments plz. I really cant understand
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  #9  
Old 11-04-2005, 07:11 AM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: Really cant understand

AKsPRO - I think I see what you're saying - and at first glance it makes sense.

If you hold A278 and the flop is 478, then you have the nut low and also two pairs.

There isnít any flop for A2TK where you can have the nut low and also two pairs.

If the flop is 478, then A2TK has no pairs. Or if the flop is 4TK, then A2TK has two pairs but only a back-door low draw.

Thus at first it looks as though A278 has the advantage over A2TK.

But it doesnít. Not really. Youíre only considering a few specific flops. Also, youíre considering flops and not five card boards on the river. Itís true that when the flop has a seven and an eight, A278 has a better flop fit than A2TK. And even when there is only one seven or eight included in a three low card flop, A278 has a better flop fit than A2TK.

But what if the flop has no low cards? When the flop is 9JQ, which hand would you rather have?

Or what if the flop has only one low card, say a four, and two high cards? When the flop is 49Q, which hand would you rather have?

Or even if the flop has two low cards, but neither is a seven or eight, say 36J? Which hand is better? And even if the flop has a seven or eight, and pairs your A278, but (to be fair) also has a king (which pairs the A2TK hand). Which hand is better?

A2TK is a better starting hand than A278 because it ends up with more winning hands on the river than A278. When those high cards connect, they make a better hand on the river more often than when the middle cards connect.

Donít misunderstand. Itís true that A278 sometimes connects with the flop and board better than A2TK. For example, if the flop is 777, then weíd all rather hold the A278. And 777 can happen just as often, when you hold A278, as TTT can when you hold A2TK.

But when the board on the river is 348JK, although both A278 and A2TK have the nut low, and although both also have one pair, in a heads-up contest it is the hand with the higher pair that gets the 3/4.

Or when the board on the river is 378TK, although both A278 and A2TK have the nut low, and although both also have two pairs, the hand with the higher two pairs is the winner for high. The same principle is true of straights or flushes. The higher straight or flush prevails.

In general, high cards have an edge over middle cards in making high hands. But you can put things together such that hands with middle cards have the advantage.

[ QUOTE ]
When you hit the flop with possible low (78Q, 356 and so on), those middle cards add you much more value for your A2 than high cards like KT or even JJ.Yes once in a while you hit 78J for you A2JJ, but this is so rarely.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll agree that XY78 fits with a low card flop better than XYJJ. But I think the XYJJ ends up with a winning high more often in a full limit game than XY78. The same is true (but to a lesser extent) of XYTJ.

I hope I've made it clear to you, because it's crystal clear in my own thinking.

Buzz
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