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  #1  
Old 12-22-2005, 11:13 PM
sledghammer sledghammer is offline
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Default near the bubble in the party 75k; SB vs. BB

top 50 pay, about 56 left. BB is a little bit loose (i think about 24/7/1.2, after <70 hands), a bit aggressive, in a weird sort of way. early on he made a questionable preflop all in call that makes me think he is not very good. I have a tight image, but have been stealing a bit in the last two orbits. nothing wierd shown down. Table has been weak tight bubble style. average stack is 9000 or so.

NL Texas Hold'em Trny:18482705 Level:10 Blinds (300/600) - Wednesday, December 21, 21:36:59 EDT 2005
Table $35K Guaranteed(545724) Table #3 (Real Money)

Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: KNOW_1_KNOWS ( $12946 )
Seat 2: Bjarni69 ( $4530 )

Seat 4: HERO ( $14794 )
Seat 5: BB ( $17990 )

Seat 6: pimpatpker10 ( $5063 )
Seat 7: Nancysgame ( $9111 )
Seat 8: onlykiller ( $14734 )
Seat 9: knowyoursoul ( $11889 )
Seat 10: i_loveyou ( $5398 )

Blinds (300/600)

Dealt to HERO [ Th As ]

Folded to me in the small blind. I didn't want to raise because of the stack sizes, since i would have to fold if he pushed. a limp reraise may have been better, but villain was not over agg preflop.

HERO calls [300].
baxacon raises [600].
HERO calls [600].

** Dealing Flop ** (2400) [ Ts, 4s, 5h ]
HERO bets [1100].
baxacon calls [1100].

** Dealing Turn ** (4600) [ Qh ]
HERO checks.
baxacon bets [2500].
HERO calls [2500].
** Dealing River ** (8600) [ 4h ]
HERO checks.

comments on all streets appreciated, as well as river lines for different BB actions.
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  #2  
Old 12-22-2005, 11:17 PM
PoBoy321 PoBoy321 is offline
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Default Re: near the bubble in the party 75k; SB vs. BB

I probably would have bet the turn, but given your stack size annd BB's stack size, I'm probably going into "fold into the money" mode unless I'm able to pick off som very short stacks.
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  #3  
Old 12-22-2005, 11:40 PM
ellipse_87 ellipse_87 is offline
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Default Re: near the bubble in the party 75k; SB vs. BB

I'd prefer to define the hand a little earlier with a large checkraise on the flop, assuming he's disciplined enough post-flop to fold an okay hand. This would separate your hand a little bit in villain's mind from the typical half-pot-sized stab, which is essential given that your apparent steals of his blinds are still fresh in his memory, and his call of such a bet combined with his stack size doesn't say much.

Given the marginal post-flop situation, I would not put any more substantial money in the pot if he calls my check raise.
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  #4  
Old 12-22-2005, 11:53 PM
sledghammer sledghammer is offline
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Default Re: near the bubble in the party 75k; SB vs. BB

[ QUOTE ]
I'd prefer to define the hand a little earlier with a large checkraise on the flop, assuming he's disciplined enough post-flop to fold an okay hand. This would separate your hand a little bit in villain's mind from the typical half-pot-sized stab, which is essential given that your apparent steals of his blinds are still fresh in his memory, and his call of such a bet combined with his stack size doesn't say much.

Given the marginal post-flop situation, I would not put any more substantial money in the pot if he calls my check raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have been more clear; i hadn't yet messed with his blind. Do you think that checkraising the flop commits us to a showdown? i'm not sure if my stack is deep enough for that, although earlier in the tourney that would definitely have been my line.

You're right when you say his flop call doesn't say much. he could easily still have an overpair, waiting to pop the turn. I was trying to end the hand on the flop(which a c/r would have accomplished better, although at more risk). when he called, and i still had no info on his hand, i wanted to keep the pot as small as possible, and just try to get to showdown without risking significant chips.
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  #5  
Old 12-23-2005, 12:19 AM
ellipse_87 ellipse_87 is offline
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Default Re: near the bubble in the party 75k; SB vs. BB

[ QUOTE ]
Do you think that checkraising the flop commits us to a showdown? i'm not sure if my stack is deep enough for that, although earlier in the tourney that would definitely have been my line.

When he called, and i still had no info on his hand, i wanted to keep the pot as small as possible, and just try to get to showdown without risking significant chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like committing to an expensive showdown when overcards are likely to come and he's shown strength by calling our definitive checkraise. I know that this transforms our hand essentially to 72o if we don't get a free showdown, but given the marginal nature of the post-flop situation, and given the bubble, I just want to take it right now or bail.

Given the way you played it, checking the turn, I favor a fold, preserving the chip position we already have and waiting for a better edge to exploit.

Betting the flop and then the turn costs roughly the same as as my checkraise option, but the c-r has the potential benefit of denying him a look at the turn, so long as we're pretty confident that he's going to throw in a continuation bet when checked to on the flop.

Playing later streets against a loose player, especially in the presense of overcards, is such a no-man's land that I just want to establish cost certainty early on.

Committing ourselves to checking the turn if we still have top pair seems kind of weird though, so I'm still thinking about this one.

But my main thing is that the position you found yourself in on this turn, as you played it, is exactly why I want to do something definitive early on.
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  #6  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:03 AM
bobbycharles bobbycharles is offline
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Default Re: near the bubble in the party 75k; SB vs. BB

[ QUOTE ]
I should have been more clear; i hadn't yet messed with his blind

[/ QUOTE ]

If I haven't messed with his blind, I'm absolutely raising with AT heads up. I'll raise it 4x BB and see what happens. With your limp, a LAG player could be raising with just about any two cards and I think you should expect it. (He should have done more than a min raise, but that kind of follows your read that he's not that great a player.)
So raise big preflop. If he reraises you, I probably call and check raise the flop. If he calls that or reraises, I think you're done.
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  #7  
Old 12-23-2005, 01:51 AM
sledghammer sledghammer is offline
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Default Re: near the bubble in the party 75k; SB vs. BB

[ QUOTE ]

If I haven't messed with his blind, I'm absolutely raising with AT heads up. I'll raise it 4x BB and see what happens. With your limp, a LAG player could be raising with just about any two cards and I think you should expect it. (He should have done more than a min raise, but that kind of follows your read that he's not that great a player.)
So raise big preflop. If he reraises you, I probably call and check raise the flop. If he calls that or reraises, I think you're done.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that i think about it, this hand would have been simpler if i had just raised preflop. with ~25BB each, there is still some play after the flop, with room for a c-bet if i miss.

if he reraises preflop i would fold. Im not playing for essentially my whole stack oop with ATo, when i have great chip position already.

If the guy was really lag preflop, this would be a perfect limp reraise spot.

I didn't really want to play a raised pot oop against a guy who may have any two cards, and might not drop a weak made hand/draw to a continuation bet. I suppose this is a weak justification for not raising preflop.
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  #8  
Old 12-23-2005, 09:31 AM
sledghammer sledghammer is offline
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Default Re: near the bubble in the party 75k; SB vs. BB

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like committing to an expensive showdown when overcards are likely to come and he's shown strength by calling our definitive checkraise. I know that this transforms our hand essentially to 72o if we don't get a free showdown, but given the marginal nature of the post-flop situation, and given the bubble, I just want to take it right now or bail.

Given the way you played it, checking the turn, I favor a fold, preserving the chip position we already have and waiting for a better edge to exploit.

Betting the flop and then the turn costs roughly the same as as my checkraise option, but the c-r has the potential benefit of denying him a look at the turn, so long as we're pretty confident that he's going to throw in a continuation bet when checked to on the flop.

Playing later streets against a loose player, especially in the presense of overcards, is such a no-man's land that I just want to establish cost certainty early on.

Committing ourselves to checking the turn if we still have top pair seems kind of weird though, so I'm still thinking about this one.

But my main thing is that the position you found yourself in on this turn, as you played it, is exactly why I want to do something definitive early on.

[/ QUOTE ]

c/r the flop has the benefit of getting an extra bet out of inferior hands. donking the flop has the benefit of keeping the pot smaller. I think near the bubble, keeping the pot small is more important. It does though, make your opponent play correctly according to the fundamental theorem of poker.
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