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  #1  
Old 11-04-2005, 10:38 AM
bodie bodie is offline
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Default 2, 3 for low - consensus

I'm curious to hear everyone's opinion on the value of 2,3 in a full, loose ring game.
Personally, it depends on the other two cards and their value as to a high pair, double suited, two other wheel cards,e tc. However, many players have been insisting to me that they hold 2,3 "no matter what" for the possible low value. One player even said that he had "never" folded 2,3.
Curious.
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  #2  
Old 11-04-2005, 11:09 AM
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Default Re: 2, 3 for low - consensus

Being new to the game, I was hanging in way too much with 2-3-x-x recently. I'd have to check my stats, but I'm sure that I'm less than break even in general with 2 3 hands. Seems like there's always at least 1 other person in every pot on Party hanging in with a bare 2 3 also, so it's a recipe for getting quartered.

Example I called a small raise with 2-3-4-Qss this morning, flop is A 5 Q, no suits, 4 of us ended up all-in. Turn K, River 8. One (retard) person took the high with 4-9-10-j(????wtf???), A-Q-x-x went down in flames, and I chopped for another guy with 2 3 low.

It might just be me, but someone always has 2-3-x-x. Could just be at the low limits.
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  #3  
Old 11-04-2005, 11:19 AM
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Default Re: 2, 3 for low - consensus

I think 2,3 is valuable in the sense that it's very easy to get away from if you don't see an A on the flop. In order to be playable, I think there has to be something else to it. I fold 2,3,8,Jos without a second thought. Another wheel card, or some kind of coordinated high cards make it playable to me.
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  #4  
Old 11-04-2005, 11:58 AM
Cooker Cooker is offline
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Default Re: 2, 3 for low - consensus

[ QUOTE ]
I think 2,3 is valuable in the sense that it's very easy to get away from if you don't see an A on the flop. In order to be playable, I think there has to be something else to it. I fold 2,3,8,Jos without a second thought. Another wheel card, or some kind of coordinated high cards make it playable to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. You want 23 with other cards that add value to your hand and good position doesn't hurt either. I will call with almost any 23 from the button though.
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  #5  
Old 11-04-2005, 01:52 PM
hachkc hachkc is offline
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Default Re: 2, 3 for low - consensus

I'll play 23xx if I have 223x or 233x where X is either a suited K/Q or another wheel card (2345). With a relatively naked 23, not worth the effort.
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  #6  
Old 11-04-2005, 03:13 PM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: 2, 3 for low - consensus

Hi Bodie - Theres no sharp distinction between some starting hands Im calling playable and some hands Im calling marginal. The same is true for the dividing line between marginal starting hands and trash hands - no sharp distinction. If I redid any of the sims, Id expect the numbers to turn out a bit differently, possibly shifting a particular hand from one category to another. Its a matter of arbitrarily drawing the line somewhere.

My thinking is the marginal hands should mainly be played only on the button or small blind in an unraised pot. You hate to limp with one of these from early or middle position and then have the pot raised behind you.

There are two categories of negatives for 23XY hands, each worth either one or two negative points.
(a) single suited is one negative point, rainbow is two negative points.
(b) one middle card is one negative point, two middle cards is two negative points.

Consider all 23XY hands with no negative points playable.
23XY hands with one negative point are either playable or marginal.
Consider all 23XY hands with two negative points marginal.
23XY hands with three negative points are either marginal or trash.
Consider all 23XY hands with four negative points trash.

Following are some example hands. Look at them, count the negative points, and then decide whether to play them or not.

#1. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#2. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#3. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#4. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#5. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#6. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#7. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#8. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#9. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#10. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#11. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>
#12. 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="white">_</font>

Hand #1 has two negatives because its a rainbow hand.
Hand #2 has one negative because its only single suited.
Hand #3 has no negatives.
Hand #4 has three negatives. Its a rainbow hand with a middle card.
Hand #5 has one negative. It has one middle card.
Hand #6 has three negatives: single suited (-1), two middle cards (-2).
Hand #7 has no negatives.
Hand #8 has two negatives: single suited (-1), one middle card (-1).
Hand #9 has four negatives: rainbow (-2), two middle cards (-2).
Hand #10 has two negatives because its a rainbow hand.
Hand #11 has one negative: single suited.
Hand #12. [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

No negatives and therefore playable without doubt: #3, #7, #12.
One negative. Playable or marginal. Use discretion: #2, #5, #11.
Two negatives. Marginal. #1, #8, #10.
Three negatives. Marginal or trash. Use discretion: #4, #6.
Four negatives. Trash: #9. Fold it. Youll feel a pang when the board has three eights, but you probably wouldnt collect much from your opponents anyhow. It will also hurt when the board on the river is the perfect double-nut, non-flushed A456J, but that wont happen much.

[ QUOTE ]
However, many players have been insisting to me that they hold 2,3 "no matter what" for the possible low value.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whatever. If you can see the flop for one small bet and if enough of your opponents also see the flop and tend to chase with poor or mediocre flop fits, then you're getting enormous implied pot odds.

However, before the flop, when you hold something like 239Tn, you have to figure you're probably only playing for half the pot. And with a bare deuce-trey at a nine player table, you figure to get quartered or sixthed roughly two hands out of every five when your bare deuce-trey isn't counterfeited or beaten by an ace-deuce or ace-trey. (Roughly half the time at least one opponent will hold ace-deuce and roughly half the time at least one opponent will hold ace-trey. Roughly three times our of four when you hold 23XY at a nine player table, at least one opponent will hold either ace-deuce or ace-trey.

Yeah, a bare deuce-trey is a nice low when it doesn't get counterfeited and when there's an ace on the board. And it's a nice low the (roughly) one time out of four when there's no ace on the board and nobody has an ace-deuce or ace-trey, but you'll dribble away more chips the many times you'll be chasing with those hands than you'll make the few times when they pay off.

23XY needs something else going it. And game and positional conditions have to be right to play the ones I've labeled as "marginal."

Just my opinion.

Buzz
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  #7  
Old 11-04-2005, 03:26 PM
hachkc hachkc is offline
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Default Re: 2, 3 for low - consensus

[ QUOTE ]
I'll play 23xx if I have 223x or 233x where X is either a suited K/Q or another wheel card (2345). With a relatively naked 23, not worth the effort.

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't note it but it should be obvious, this is a limp from position depending on the table.
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  #8  
Old 11-04-2005, 04:05 PM
kurto kurto is offline
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Default Re: 2, 3 for low - consensus

You don't think #2 and #5 aren't decent?

It seems to me the value of them suited is only important so far as they are blockers to other people who would pursue the flush.

I would think #2 if fairly strong... certainly it nearly always requires an ace... but if an ace and any low card hits, you will almost almost have the best draw to the wheel and you would be drawing to an uncounterfeitable low.
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  #9  
Old 11-04-2005, 04:21 PM
benwood benwood is offline
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Default Re: 2, 3 for low - consensus

One point in favor of the lowly 3,2 that has not been posted: The 3,2 can flop more favorable lo draw/straight/draw combos than the A,3. Namely, if 65, 64, or 54 flop, these combo draws appear. I would be interested in any discussion concsrning the value of this, if any. Thank you.
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  #10  
Old 11-04-2005, 04:30 PM
Buzz Buzz is offline
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Default Re: 2, 3 for low - consensus

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think #2 and #5 aren't decent?

[/ QUOTE ]

Kurto - Double negatives in questions ("don't" and "aren't") make the questions hard for me to read. I think #2 and #5 are decent. I do. But I don't think they're quite as good as some other hands in the list.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems to me the value of them suited is only important so far as they are blockers to other people who would pursue the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

They clearly simuilate better if suited. I'll never forget the time I got knocked out of a tournament by someone playing a baby flush. Having a baby flush along with the nut low greatly increases the chances of scooping or getting three quarters. It does.

[ QUOTE ]
I would think #2 if fairly strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree #2 is fairly strong.

I was trying to come up with an easy way to generalize about which 23XY hands to play and which not to play. I started with the list of simulation results of all possible 23XY hands. Really too much detail there for anybody to reasonably remember and keep straight.

I have all the hands "styled" by color according to whether I consider them playable, marginal or "trash" in my computer files. The thing that really stands out is how much better double suited hands do than single suited hands, and how much better single suited hands do than rainbows.

That's not even my opinion. It's just clearly obvious - stands out like a sore thumb.

Buzz
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