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#42
05-04-2005, 02:28 PM
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Re: Do you believe the shuffle is really random online???
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Do you believe the shuffle is really random online??? [/ QUOTE ] Yes. [/ QUOTE ] Start by defining random. Then give me examples of ANYTHING that is random. Should you define random as something beyond your power to predict, then the Poker sites hold up to that test. Beyond the power of ANYONE to predict, they do there best to guarantee that. [/ QUOTE ] I sometimes wonder why people don't use physical random number generators (e.g. LavaRnd). Then I get this fantastic mental image of the Secret PartyPoker Cave, chock full of lava lamps. Heh. 
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#43
05-04-2005, 03:45 PM
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Re: Do you believe the shuffle is really random online???
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The sites are NOT rigged. People do NOT know what cards are coming next. Amid aka Groo aka Denim [/ QUOTE ] Part of me has always thought that online sites were rigged from the swings I have experienced over the past 4 years of play. Some days 90% of my draws would hit, other days (like an example posted before) my boat is getting outdrawn by a higher boat. BUT, even IF the sites are rigged, they still give us the option: Check, Fold, Bet, Raise. And, from what I've experienced, there's no way I'm going to be sitting down to a table with 8 or 9 other bots. If that does happen to me, I'm still given the CHOICE on how to play any given hand. My (or the other player's) choice alone makes the game "random" enough regardless of the cards.
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#44
05-04-2005, 04:21 PM
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Re: Do you believe the shuffle is really random online???
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There was a flaw in the shuffle initially used by planet poker which allowed a player to know the exact position of all cards once they saw the flop. [/ QUOTE ] I'm assuming the position of the cards would be center of the table. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
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#45
05-04-2005, 04:26 PM
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Re: Do you believe the shuffle is really random online???
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I have no idea to what degree online poker is rigged... But... The arguement that poker sites would not cheat... Because "too much is at stake"... Or "make too much money to risk scandal"... Is hopelessly naive. Just look at 2 MAXIMUM REGULATED worlds. The securities business... Gave us Enron... The recent mutual fund skimming scandal... Endless insider trading. [/ QUOTE ] The securities markets didn't "give" us Enron. That's like saying poker gave us Phil Hellmuth. Poker must be evil, look what it spawned.
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#46
05-04-2005, 05:26 PM
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Re: Do you believe the shuffle is really random online???
I know the OP will be bashed up and down, but this is similar to people arguing the existence of god (not exactly similar, but follow me for a sec)
No one can prove that God does or doesn't exist. There are arguements for and against it. I'm Agnostic, so I do not dispute the possibilty of a god existing, but I'd like to be able to see some proof to truly believe. Similar to online poker. I do not dispute the possibility that there could be cheating done (through the software, whether it's internal people messing with it, since these are offshore operations making millions of dollars, or if it's someone offsite who's written some code to break the system) Just watched Breaking Vegas: Slots last night, about a guy who worked on the Gaming Commission and setup a system to rig slots and predict Keno numbers to steal money from the casinos. Anything is possible, never just assume that these huge sites making millions have zero vested interest in certain outcomes, or that there couldn't possibly be people offshore, unregulated, who would rig hands and take legitimate players money. Granted, this type of stuff can happen in poker due to variance as well. Heard that at this years WPT Championship event a player held A/K and the flop was A/K/K and his opponent held A/A. It happens. I think what the OP is trying to say is this: 1. He has experience playing with these particular players, has statistics on them, etc. 2. These players are solid, TAG-types not prone to making bad plays. 3. When they do make bad plays/calls, it seems to only happen when they are going to miraculously outdraw someone who had a monster hand going in. (i.e. Why are these solid players only playing these terrible hands when the outcome is that they're going to wind up making their one-outer or what have you?) But, are we considering the times we don't see them fold their hands? Were they making bad plays and got out before it was too late? The OP doesn't provide enough details to truly investigate, but it's certainly an interesting theory. And given technology (and corruption) today, not an out-of-this-world idea. Kinda like people who just up and believe "oh, my goverment wouldn't lie to me. Our government wouldn't kill it's own people". People tend to like to believe whatever they're told or read. Then again, people can be quick to point fingers and blame outside forces not under their influence, and maybe miss their own shortcomings. To make a long post just a bit longer: I honestly don't know, but anything is possible, especially when there's money involved.
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#47
05-04-2005, 05:31 PM
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Re: Do you believe the shuffle is really random online???
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[ QUOTE ] The sites are NOT rigged. People do NOT know what cards are coming next. Amid aka Groo aka Denim [/ QUOTE ] Part of me has always thought that online sites were rigged from the swings I have experienced over the past 4 years of play. Some days 90% of my draws would hit, other days (like an example posted before) my boat is getting outdrawn by a higher boat. BUT, even IF the sites are rigged, they still give us the option: Check, Fold, Bet, Raise. And, from what I've experienced, there's no way I'm going to be sitting down to a table with 8 or 9 other bots. If that does happen to me, I'm still given the CHOICE on how to play any given hand. My (or the other player's) choice alone makes the game "random" enough regardless of the cards. [/ QUOTE ] Those swings are random.
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#48
05-04-2005, 08:17 PM
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Re: Do you believe the shuffle is really random online???
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] Do you believe the shuffle is really random online??? [/ QUOTE ] Yes. [/ QUOTE ] Start by defining random. Then give me examples of ANYTHING that is random. Should you define random as something beyond your power to predict, then the Poker sites hold up to that test. Beyond the power of ANYONE to predict, they do there best to guarantee that. You will have to mine your data for patterns and give statistical evidence to non-random patterns. Do that and we will take you a little more seriously. Computers are machines it is rather hard to get "random" output from them. Hence the terms "psuedo-random" and the like. I however believe in the fairness of the deal. Otherwise I would not play. If you do not believe you should only be playing with the goal to gather enough data to get proof. Pokertracker has the data, run some real analysis and show us the proof. -- tjh [/ QUOTE ] Well lucky for us, the computer isn't inventing random numbers. Using all sorts of random data, such as the lower bits of the temperature in the server case, or the lower bits of the number of people online in the cardroom, or the low bits of ms in delay for user x to click the fold button for his hand... they can create enough bits of truly random data to generate a seed for a PRNG that works quite well. Its not like they are just using the rand() function in c++, these cardrooms are using all sorts of fancy hardware RNGs to farm enough random data from the environment to ensure that every possible shuffle is covered. I do disagree a little bit with the point earlier though, because at every poker cardroom i've played at (with the exception of the monte carlo which used a machine), the dealer always spreads the entire deck out after every hand and mashes them around on the table before collecting them to shuffle a few times, and then cut the deck. This I believe creates a very random shuffle.
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#49
05-05-2005, 06:05 PM
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Re: Do you believe the shuffle is really random online???
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[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] If you read the posts above that one you will probably see what I meant when I said I was not claiming the sites were rigged. What I meant to say (perhaps it was unclear) is that I do not beleive that the sites themselves are cheating people, but rathter that outsiders may have figured out ways to predict the hole cards or cards to be dealt. [/ QUOTE ] Now, I'm not an encryption know-it-all, but I have read that it would take the fastest computer in the world several million years to crack 128-bit encryption, if not longer. [/ QUOTE ] Splashpot is right. Cracking the standard encryption used today... Would take too much computer power to be feasible. Remember... You have only seconds to act. "Outsiders predicting cards"... Happened once in one well publicized instance... But that was years ago. That's why it's impossible today. The only cheating with cards... Can come from the poker site side... Where they shut down the Random Numer Generator for one hand... And deal a pre-programmed hand... Just the way Vegas casinos would bring in a mechanic. There would be no evidence... Because Party has 100% of the evidence... And no one would talk... Since only those actually involved would know. And even if there were caught red-handed... 1,000,000 poker site apologists would step forward... And screeeeeeeeam, "Just another loser complaining". If you guys only knew... How much cheating goes on at the New York Stock Exchange. Since I've been coming to 2+2... I've been ** shocked ** at the BLIND FAITH... Regular players have in unregulated poker sites. I must be a powerful form of denial... And beyond rational control. Hell... Ed Miller recommends avoiding Party... In This 2+2 Post Is Miller joking? Clueless? rm+ [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [/ QUOTE ] Are you joking? Clueless?
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#50
05-06-2005, 06:27 PM
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Re: Do you believe the shuffle is really random online???
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However it is a known fact that at certain times in the past people were able to predict the cards to be dealt, as well as players hole cards, either due to poor shuffles or from hacking things like hand history servers. [/ QUOTE ] If you can document these "known facts" would you please do so. Otherwise, you will have to provide me with your definition of "known" and "fact". Also, how would hacking a "hand history server" whatever that is help me know the future? BTW: your next hold'em hand will be AA and you'll get sucked out on the river by T4s.
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