AJo and KQo UTG

[Barry]

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I just don't understand the value in raising. Can somebody please help me see what I'm missing?


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Because others don't play the same way as is commonly accepted here.

Bad players cold call with cheese all the time. That happens much more frequently than the times that you get 3-bet by a dominating hand. Plus you might get the added bonus of getting other good players at the table to fold similar hands to yours or medium pairs due to the gap concept.

[ggbman]

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LIMPING kqo utg, however, is just not something i do

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I noted your correction, and I'm keeping that in mind as I write this.

I'm wondering why exactly everybody likes raising with a hand that will likely only be called by something better, or 3 bet by something that has you dominated. I read Peter's post, and it was great as always, but I'm still left a little confused (it happens all the time).

As a general rule I want people that are in a pot against me to have hands inferior to mine. If I have KQo, those hands include other unsuited broadway cards (almost exclusively). By raising UTG I'm encouraging all of those types of hands to fold (I'm assuming we are in a normal game, with a few bad player) and I'm encouraging all of the medium to big aces and PP's to 3 bet me.

I habitually limp w/ KQ and AJ UTG in a decent-mediocre game as it doesn't give much info about my hand away, and it encourages others with inferior hands to come along as well. If i'm in a super tight game these are both auto-raising hands, but in games where several of the players will call w/ KJ or KTo for one bet, but not for two, I just don't understand the value in raising. Can somebody please help me see what I'm missing?

lf

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KQ is a hand that i personally play a lot of different ways. I think raising it is often good so that when you are cold called, you can continue to bet and get people to fold weaker aces. However, there is some merit to limping with it in my opinion to induce the KQ, KJ, QJ hands to come along, because if you raise KQo in EP and are called, you are usually dominated when you hit the flop and get heavy action. This is not true if you limp with it, as you've induces weker hands to come along for the ride. In my opinion, this is one of those hands that you have to mix up your play with.

[Nate tha' Great]

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And yes, I am talking about possibly high-profitable games, but where there perhaps are two weak/loose players and the rest of the lineup is between good-to-very good and will punish players coming in with hands like these from UTG quite considerably.

Lets once and for all get past this "if AJo and KQo ain't playable UTG, the game is not playable" stage please.

lars

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Lars,

I decided to run a simulation using Turbo Texas Hold 'Em. I have my doubts about TTHE doing certain things well, but I think it's reasonably reliable when evaluating preflop questions such as this one.

The parameters I specified were as follows:

- You are in Seat 1, and acting UTG.
- $50/$100 game with $25/$50 blinds and a $3 flat rake (e.g. interpoker)
- There is a loose passive player in Seat 4 (EMP), a loose aggressive player in the Seat 6 (HiJack), and a loose, moderately aggressive player in Seat 9 (SB). All other players are tight aggressives, and play exactly as well as you do after the flop.
- You are programmed to call AJo/KQo if 3-bet, but fold if it comes back to you capped.

I believe that these assumptions are fairly realsitic, both in terms of matching the conditions you've described and the conditions that I've observed while playing these games.

Under these parameters, raising KQo UTG showed a profit of about .05 BB/hand, and raising AJo UTG showed a profit of about .15 BB/hand, over a very significant sample size.

Three things to keep in mind:

1) Under these conditions, the probability of stealing the blinds is really quite high, which alone accounts for a fairly significant profit. Note that it probably is important that there is a tight player in the BB; if one of the loose players was in the BB (since the BB will play far more hands than anyone else at the table), you likely would not do quite as well with these hands. But nevertheless, stealing the blinds is an important part of turning a profit in these games IMO, and probably quite a bit more important than at a somewhat smaller limit.
2) There is also some incentive to play more hands because the rake in these games works out to such a small percentage of the pot.
3) Most importantly - and this is a factor external to the simulation itself - anyone who tried to "keep you honest" by isolating or floating when you played KQo or AJo would not show a large profit from doing so, PROVIDED that these are about the weakest hands that you are routinely raising UTG. After all, most of the time, you will have a hand stronger than KQo/AJo, and perhaps quite a bit stronger. This is the Gap Concept in about its very simplest form.

Of course, if several of the TAGs played a lot better than you after the flop, then you might not show a profit with these hands. However, in that case, it is unlikely that you would be beating the game for a material amount, unless the weak spots were absolutely terrible.

I'll stand by my original assertion. The only exception IMO is if there are a few really loose aggressive players at the table who also play pretty well after the flop.

EDIT: Experimental results were misstated in original post.

[GreywolfNYC]

"KQ is a hand that i personally play a lot of different ways. I think raising it is often good so that when you are cold called, you can continue to bet and get people to fold weaker aces. However, there is some merit to limping with it in my opinion to induce the KQ, KJ, QJ hands to come along, because if you raise KQo in EP and are called, you are usually dominated when you hit the flop and get heavy action. This is not true if you limp with it, as you've induces weker hands to come along for the ride. In my opinion, this is one of those hands that you have to mix up your play with."

I could not disagree more. First of all, if I see someone at the table open-raising UTG with this type of hand I am going to three-bet them to death every chance I get. And I wouldn't assume that you're going to push what you call the weaker aces off their hands by betting when an ace hits the board. Whats going to happen is your going to get popped on the turn by someone who does indeed have you dominated. And then what do you do? Keep trying to bluff at the pot or lay it down? Either way you've lost money.
Limping in EP is even worse. If you're going to play this hand at least try to narrow the field a bit by raising. You talk about creating a big multi-way pot with a hand that doesn't play well multi-way. You have no draw except for the remote chance of a Broadway straight. You don't have a pair to make a set with. Ask yourself what you are trying to accomplish with this hand before you get involved with it.

[Guido]

Hi Joe,

I got it, but the competition gets harder when you move up right? Therefore it might be better to fold KQ and AJ UTG at 30/60 and raise them at 15/30. It might be right to play 30/60 instead of 15/30 and folding these hands at 30/60 because you win more $$$ overall. I was just wondering how much better the competition is at 15/30 and if it's worth playing these hands UTG. I don't play 1/2 the same way I play 15/30, maybe you do but I don't.

Peace [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img],

Guido

[Guido]

Thanks Nate!!! You are Great!!! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[DcifrThs]

what is the EV/hand of calling ajo and kqo all else equal?

-Barron

[Joe Tall]

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I got it, but the competition gets harder when you move up right? Therefore it might be better to fold KQ and AJ UTG at 30/60 and raise them at 15/30. It might be right to play 30/60 instead of 15/30 and folding these hands at 30/60 because you win more $$$ overall. I was just wondering how much better the competition is at 15/30 and if it's worth playing these hands UTG. I don't play 1/2 the same way I play 15/30, maybe you do but I don't.


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It doesn't change the value of the hand when you move up, so if you were comfortable raising it at the lower limits, then you should be comfortable raising it at any limit. Since you are asking the question, it sounds like you may not be comfortable playing the limit itself, not the hands. This is what I think Nate was saying and surely is what I'm saying.

Peace bro,
Joe Tall

[bicyclekick]

No way joe. There are some games where there are enough very solid players who aren't going to be making the mistakes the lower limit players make...which will make it a -EV proposition I think. There aren't going to be the stupid cold-calls etc. It has nothing to do with comfort (at least in my case).

[Guido]

I think some of the value of a hand comes from the limit you play. You will get payed of a lot more at the lower limits. That doesn't have to mean that you shouldn't be playing in that game. It might just need a little change of strategy...

Peace,

Guido