Learning to play poker again. Part 1/3 overcards out of position.

[Hybrid_11]

I understand your prob not gaining much either way but on a side note AK will bet player dependent of course

[Frogic]

I see your logic, the check/raising rags is something I never do in my ABC game and I feel I'm not thinking when I play anymore.. I guess I need to find a better spot. If you think I lose when I improve why are we calling the pfr at all? you say that you check/fold a flop meaning that you make the same pf call, is it possible that hybrid's original assertion of folding to the pfr is right?

It sucks that this hand is the one I screwed up the most out of the three hands I posted, since its the one I liked the most.

Oh well thats the point of this excercize anyway, the 2/4 is so soft I think I'm going to stay down here for 5-10k hands until I feel confident, I know I'm going to hate going back up and not getting 4-6 players to the turn over 50% of the time(poor set value).

[brettbrettr]

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is it possible that hybrid's original assertion of folding to the pfr is right?

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link

[Frogic]

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...;o=14&vc=1

[sy_or_bust]

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If you think I lose when I improve why are we calling the pfr at all?

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You don't give up much by folding. And if you tend to play overcards like this postflop, you're gaining by folding AQ to an UTG raise.

You call because you're getting 3-1 on a hand that does better than that against an UTG range. But it is very tricky to play - you can flop an ace and sometimes lose, flop a queen and lose, etc. Often the best line involves check/calling 2-3 streets when you flop an ace. When you flop nothing, however, you must recognize that you have become a huge dog, which is why you fold - you are usually behind, and your outs are dirty in a small pot.

[Frogic]

Well as for flopping an ace I usually do the standard fear of kicker thing with it and check/callx2 then donk bet the river. For the queen I keep betting until raised and call down. I just hate the check/call followed by check/fold line and I maybe its because I've been running bad but it feels like a leak(I guess check/folding the flop right away might be better, since I probably don't have odds to call even with a backdoor flush as the pot is tiny.)

Frogic

[Harv72b]

Folding preflop should not be an option against an unknown. If you're getting into trouble with hands like this one postflop, then you need to learn how to handle them and not shy away from playing these situations. Especially if you're planning to move back up to 3/6 & beyond in the future.

The way I see it, you have three options with this hand against an unknown EP raiser. You can just check/call the whole way to showdown UI, which is almost certainly a longterm losing play but might be okay once or twice for informational/intimidation factors (it doesn't hurt to convince your opponents at the table that you cannot be moved off of a decent hand, as this will discourage bluffs against you & attempted steals of your blinds). Alternatively, you can check/call the flop and check/fold the turn, which would be my default play here. I like this line also because if your opponent checks through the turn, it gives you the opportunity to lead the river and maybe push him off of AK or another AQ.

However, if you really want to make a statement and try to push him off a better hand, I'd try a check/call, check/raise line (especially with the board pairing on the turn). I don't recommend using this line against an unknown player as you need to really know that he can fold a better hand when you represent a monster like that (and need to be fairly certain that your table image is strong enough to convince him that you have what you're representing), but against a known solid, thinking player this can work. It's up for debate whether or not it works often enough to be +EV, but we all like to shake up our game every so often.

You have to realize that a decent opponent is going to know what you're representing by your betting pattern. Check/raising a rags flop HU here represents nothing more than 1 pair or even a 4-flush or OESD. Check/calling the flop and then check/raising the turn represents a set or trips. As someone said already, the flop c/r followed by the turn lead is usually only going to push him off of hands that you beat anyway.

There are other things you can try, like check/call check/call followed by a donkbet on the river, but I think lines like this are best reserved for times when you actually do have a small or medium pocket pair & are hoping that he calls with A high.