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#21
11-18-2005, 08:54 PM
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Re: Catholics less nutty than Protestants: more evidence
My position is simply that there are certain members of the current Church hierarchy who are heretics or suspects of heresy. I would include the late JP II in the latter group but not the current Pope.
Unlike a schismatic, I fully acknowledge the rightful authority of the Pope, even if he is wrong. 
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#22
11-18-2005, 11:09 PM
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Re: Catholics less nutty than Protestants: more evidence
[ QUOTE ]
Unlike a schismatic, I fully acknowledge the rightful authority of the Pope, even if he is wrong. [/ QUOTE ] Acknowledgement=obedience. You can't honestly say that you and the Society of St. Pius X give that to the Holy Father. Because among other things that would mean acknowleding the validity of the "new" Mass even while taking advantage of the indult to continue yourselves to use the Tridentine. Unless of course you interpret canon law as you please and not according to the interpretation of the pope.
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#23
11-18-2005, 11:30 PM
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Re: Catholics less nutty than Protestants: more evidence
"Acknowledgement=obedience"
That's an extremely dangerous statement. Blind obedience is never owed to a human authority. One must have reasoned obedience. And when one Pope contradicts another Pope, one must make a decision based on reason, as the authority of one Pope does not supersede the authority of another at any point in time. The Society of St. Pius X has never declared the new mass as invalid. As for Canon law, the Pope is subject to error. His final verdict cannot be overturned by any power on Earth even when wrong, but it is still not true according to the law of God.
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#24
11-18-2005, 11:48 PM
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Re: Catholics less nutty than Protestants: more evidence
In the church, canon law primarily is about obedience and the correct way to do things. And the pope is the supreme legislator in this. Thus his canonical opinion is always right since canon law really doesn't deal with doctrinal matters.
[ QUOTE ] as the authority of one Pope does not supersede the authority of another at any point in time [/ QUOTE ] This is simply untrue. No ifs, ands or buts. The current pope has the final say in matters of canon law and liturgical practice not having to do with doctrine. His predecessors cannot bind him in that, only on doctrinal matters infallibly decreed. And Pius V's institution of the Tridentine Mass was a canonical liturgical decree. Surely you see the logical circle you put yourself in by asserting otherwise since obviously Pius V changed one form of the Mass himself into another. Thus canon law is necessarily not in error when the pope defines it to mean something not to do with doctrine, which canon law isn't about. And one of the fundamental principles of canon law is that all legislation is to be interpreted according to the mind of the legislator.
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#25
11-19-2005, 12:04 AM
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Re: Catholics less nutty than Protestants: more evidence
"His predecessors cannot bind him in that, only on doctrinal matters infallibly decreed."
That is precisely the assertion I am making. I do not argue his authority to institute a new mass or make canonical decrees. I am speaking specifically of doctrinal matters. But the Pope cannot make one NOT celebrate the Latin Mass anymore than he cannot make one NOT pray the Rosary. If he were to excommunicate anyone for disobeying him on these matters, he merely separates them from his own irreligion.
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#26
11-19-2005, 04:49 AM
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Re: Catholics less nutty than Protestants: more evidence
[ QUOTE ]
But the Pope cannot make one NOT celebrate the Latin [/ QUOTE ] This is a purely liturgical and thus a canonical rather than doctrinal matter. Period. And the rubrics state that the Mass may be said in latin or "another approved language". However that does not mean you can use any certain form of the Mass in either language without proper authority. Thus for example, the ancient english Sarum rite is no longer permitted, although an exception was made in the last couple years to celebrate its anniversary. And of course since in my diocese for example the Trid is lawfully allowed in a certain parish, that means you would go to it rather than needing to go to a nearby SSPX chapel right?
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#27
11-19-2005, 05:22 AM
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Re: Catholics less nutty than Protestants: more evidence
[ QUOTE ]
My position is simply that there are certain members of the current Church hierarchy who are heretics or suspects of heresy. I would include the late JP II in the latter group but not the current Pope. [/ QUOTE ] Not yet anyways. Pinlifter
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#28
11-19-2005, 01:30 PM
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Re: Catholics less nutty than Protestants: more evidence
If one is under the legal authority of the diocese then one would have to celebrate the mass that is prescribed in that diocese. But the SSPX does not belong under the jurisdiction of any diocese, nor does it claim to, nor does it set up its own counter diocese claiming that the other dioceses are invalid (like the schismatic Orthodox). It is a self sufficient brotherhood and does masses where the faithful have asked them to come.
"And of course since in my diocese for example the Trid is lawfully allowed in a certain parish, that means you would go to it rather than needing to go to a nearby SSPX chapel right?" Unfortunately, even though the Latin Mass in your parish is in itself good, it gives rise to scandal. The scandal is that the Tridentine Mass is morally and faithfully as good as the New Mass, and choosing one or the other is merely a matter of personal preference. This is NOT the case. The priests who celebrate the Tridentine Rite under Ecclesia Dei (a document suspected of heresy) must also concelebrate or celebrate the New Mass at the whim of their diocesan Bishop. To disobey would put them in the same boat as the SSPX to begin with (OR even worse, because they will be seen as flip flopping on the issue).
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#29
11-19-2005, 03:39 PM
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Re: Catholics less nutty than Protestants: more evidence
"If one is under the legal authority of the diocese then one would have to celebrate the mass that is prescribed in that diocese. But the SSPX does not belong under the jurisdiction of any diocese, nor does it claim to, nor does it set up its own counter diocese claiming that the other dioceses are invalid (like the schismatic Orthodox). It is a self sufficient brotherhood and does masses where the faithful have asked them to come.
"And of course since in my diocese for example the Trid is lawfully allowed in a certain parish, that means you would go to it rather than needing to go to a nearby SSPX chapel right?" Unfortunately, even though the Latin Mass in your parish is in itself good, it gives rise to scandal. The scandal is that the Tridentine Mass is morally and faithfully as good as the New Mass, and choosing one or the other is merely a matter of personal preference. This is NOT the case. The priests who celebrate the Tridentine Rite under Ecclesia Dei (a document suspected of heresy) must also concelebrate or celebrate the New Mass at the whim of their diocesan Bishop. To disobey would put them in the same boat as the SSPX to begin with (OR even worse, because they will be seen as flip flopping on the issue)." I will now list all those who think that there is no reason to care about this stuff. 1. Atheists 2. Agnostics 3. Jews. 4. Buddhists 5. Hindus 6. Liberal Protestants. 7. Not Ready 8. 90% of Catholics 9. Jesus Christ 10. God
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#30
11-19-2005, 04:59 PM
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Re: Catholics less nutty than Protestants: more evidence
[ QUOTE ]
I will now list all those who think that there is no reason to care about this stuff. 1. Atheists 2. Agnostics 3. Jews. 4. Buddhists 5. Hindus 6. Liberal Protestants. 7. Not Ready 8. 90% of Catholics 9. Jesus Christ 10. God [/ QUOTE ] That leaves 100 million people who do care about this stuff. Stu
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