Some Limit O8 hands

#1 09-14-2005, 02:59 PM

Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 bets, CO folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls.

River: J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets.
Final Pot:

Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG +1 calls, UTG+2 calls,
5 folds, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets(all-in), BB bets UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, BB reraises, UTG calls, UTG+1calls, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB bets,UTG folds, UTG+1 fold, Hero folds.

Final Pot:

Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds,UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO folds, SB folds.

Turn: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot:

No player specific reads, but the table as a whole was very loose passive.

SheridanCat · #2 09-14-2005, 03:59 PM

I'm pretty much an Omaha/8 beginner, so my don't believe anything I say below. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I'm trying to work on my O/8 game, so I hope to be active here.

I would suggest that 3 hands in one post is too much - perhaps just pick the most interesting one or make multiple posts.

Hand 1:

I assume the purpose of your flop raise is to isolate the bettor. I'm not really a fan of trying to isolate (assuming that was your intention) at a passive table. Your hand is pretty weak at this point. I'm probably too weak, but I'd check/fold the flop. Obviously, after you hit your low, you're going stay in, but then you bet which drives out opponents. Again, maybe I'm weak, but when I have nut low and nothing else with a bunch of players in, I want them all coming along.

Hand 2:

I'm not in love with the preflop raise. You've already got two callers and whether you flop good and aim for a scoop or just for a low, you want plenty of players in to pay you off. The rest of the hand is fine, I think.

Hand 3:

This one pretty much plays itself, I think.

I hope I didn't mess up too badly.

Regards,

T

Beavis68 · #3 09-14-2005, 05:22 PM

hand one; I do not like the flop raise - all you have is a pair of aces and second nut low draw

hand two; I don't understand the turn raise - I don't think you have equity with one card to come.

Beavis68 · #4 09-14-2005, 05:28 PM

hand 3, the flop looks like a good chance to check-raise.

the turn and the river, I dont like leading out. I think I like checking, calling a bet, but folding to a bet and a raise.

Ribbo · #5 09-14-2005, 06:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero calls, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ewwwww. You missed out on 5 small bets by not raising preflop. Yes you raise that flop, because you likely have the best low draw and you have a very good high hand and obviously you should follow it through on the turn and river. You should have half. By raising preflop you may even get more action since people will do the whole "he has A2" routine, so will be less likely to think that's a good flop for your hand. You HAVE to raise that hand preflop from the button though. It's painful for you not to.

Ribbo · #6 09-14-2005, 06:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hand one; I do not like the flop raise - all you have is a pair of aces and second nut low draw

hand two; I don't understand the turn raise - I don't think you have equity with one card to come.

[/ QUOTE ]

The flop raise is perfectly fine, stop being such a rock, it's costing you money not raising that flop.

Ironman · #7 09-14-2005, 06:05 PM

Nina,

Take a look at the first hand and ask yourself how things would have changed if you raised it pre-flop.

A A 4 from the button is something I would want to be aggressive with.

You get a favorable flop (maybe some of the spade flush limpers would have folded preflop...but that's not really important at this point).

The action is checked to you.

You bet. Some of those people fold (like the A 2 people).

The turn brings a great card giving you nut low (but frankly, it didn't need to be that good if you played the hand from a position of strength right off the bat).

If you raised preflop, you would have had a chance to scoop rather than just pick up half.

By playing it passively, you needed the cards to fit your hand well....in this case it worked out but I wouldn't let it come to chance like that.

I'll let others comment on hands 2 & 3.

Dave

pipes · #8 09-14-2005, 06:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 checks, CO checks, Hero calls, BB checks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ewwwww. You missed out on 5 small bets by not raising preflop. Yes you raise that flop, because you likely have the best low draw and you have a very good high hand and obviously you should follow it through on the turn and river. You should have half. By raising preflop you may even get more action since people will do the whole "he has A2" routine, so will be less likely to think that's a good flop for your hand. You HAVE to raise that hand preflop from the button though. It's painful for you not to.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hand 1

Looks like 2 people posted. You must raise that hand preflop. Make those people with completely random hands pay. You have a preflop edge.

I like the flop raise as well.

Buzz · #9 09-15-2005, 12:50 AM

Nina - I think having an extra high card when you have one ace can be worthwhile. However, when you have a pair of aces, a king doesn’t add much value. Here are the numbers:

The first column below shows the hand. The second column is the total for high wins, counting winning half a pot as 1/2, a quarter of a pot as 1/4, etc. The third column is total for low wins, same deal as high. The fourth column is scoops. Then I just added tham all together to get a grand total in the fifth column, so as to come up with a relative estimate of the worth of a hand. The results are for a nine handed game with 10000 simulations with random hands and boards.

AA42n.....286....1533....677.....2496
AA43n.....329....1345....664.....2338
AA44n.....455.....808.....561.....1824
AA45n.....340.....981.....599.....1920
AA46n.....371.....866.....538.....1775
AA47n.....384.....731.....517.....1632
AA48n.....376.....715.....498.....1589
AA49n.....365.....776.....457.....1598
AA4Tn.....395.....809.....528.....1732
AA4Jn.....382.....751.....523.....1656
AA4Qn.....394.....750.....560.....1704
AA4Kn.....391.....763.....522.....1676

Single suited aces are better, and double suited aces better yet. Even the 5 suited to the 4 is better (but not by much) than a rainbow hand, as shown in the complete AA45 series below:

AA45d.....520.....888....1117.....2525 (double suited aces)
AA45s.....422.....969.....898.....2289 (sgl std ace, 2 cards in suit)
AA45s”’...420.....927.....811.....2158 (sgl std ace, 3 cards in suit)
AA45s-....371.....959.....644.....1974 (five and four of same suit)
AA45n.....340.....981.....599.....1920 (rainbow)

Several things to note.
First, if I ran the sims again, I’d expect the numbers to be a bit different, and some of the hand would exchange places with other. For example, AA4Qn does not figure to have more wins than AA4Kn.
Second, I think you want to try to play for scoops. Although you end up with the same number of chips by scooping a pot once as by winning half of the same size pot twice, you only put your stack at risk once instead of twice. But I don’t know to translate the extra value of scoops into numbers.
Third, if I used a different line-up of opponents the results would be different.
Fourth, just to give you a rough idea, 1111 would be average. What to play is, in my humble opinion, highly opponent dependent, but with a bit of experience, I think you could consider anything above 1400 probably playable and anything from 1200 to 1399 marginal.

Oh, and you’re probably interested in your own specific hand, while I’m at it. No problem:
AA4Ks.....498.....713.....856.....2067

At any rate, I think AA4Ks is a fine starting hand, and I’d want to see the flop with it. Is it strong enough to raise before the flop? Yes, but limping from the button is all right too. (Why do I feel almost certain Ribbo disagrees, and will be adamant about raising here, although I haven’t read his response yet)? Raising from early position with this hand makes more sense to me than raising from late position. However, if you raise a lot from late position with ace-deuce-X-Y hands, I think you should raise with this one too to mix up your game and make yourself less readable.

And if you’re like the pup on the beach who has fun making the sea gulls scatter, by all means raise. (But if the pup is hungry, rushing and barking at the sea gulls may not be the best hunting strategy).

I do like your raise on the second betting round and your leads after everyone checks to you on the third and fourth betting rounds.

Your second hand, A255d, is about in the same class as AA4Ks. That was my opinion before I looked up the simulation, and seems to bear up with the simulation results:
A255d .....270.....1108.....720.....2098

You raise from early position. Fine. A limp would have been fine too. Then you bet the flop and still get to jamb on the turn. Tres bien. You have enough opponents and enough outs that you have favorable odds to do so. And then your horse lost at the finish line. Tough luck, but that’s part of the game.

Your third hand, A479d is not in the same class as the first two.
A479d .....404.....509.....541.....1454

But it’s good enough to voluntarily see the flop from any position. And you’re already pre-paid in the big blind.
Is it good enough to raise? Yes. Is it good enough to call a raise? Depends. I’d generally pay two bets to see the flop with the hand - but it depends.

Then you catch a perfect flop. Looking good!!

But then the board pairs on the turn - and the top board card too. Oops. Not good for you.

I think you’re probably favored to still have the best hand at the table at this point, but I think that will change on the river. I think you won’t be favored on the river. Off the top of my head, I think it’s something like 4 to 1 that at least one of your original opponents was dealt cards that would make a full house by the time you all get to the river. But if that happened, is that opponent still in the hand? Hard to say. At any rate, you bet anyway, and they both call. Could be they’re both on a low draw. Could be they’re both chasing with non-nut diamonds. Will one of them make a full house on the river? Hard to say. Six of you saw the flop and you don’t have full house cards, which increases the chances of somebody else having been dealt them. Everybody should read you for the flopped nut diamond flush - but then neither opponent raises when you bet the turn - but they both do call.

What’s going on? Are they both drawing for low? Does one or both of them have cards that will make a full house on the river? Is somebody holding a full house and laying in the weeds for you?

I’d check call on the river, rather than betting. That would work best, I think, in the games in which I play. Somebody with nothing would probably fold if I bet, but might try a bluff if I just checked. Somebody with a full house might (should!) raise if I bet. So I’d check/call.

But you bet and they both called. Interesting. I don't see much of a chance of that happening in a live casino game for real money. Do these two opponents know anything about how to play the game? Are the stakes high enough so that it matters?

Buzz

GooperMC · #10 09-15-2005, 12:25 PM

Hand 1:
- Should have raised pre-flop.
- I like the flop raise.

Hand 2:
- I prefer a limp pre-flop, but raise isn't horrible (opponent dependant)
- I play the rest of the hand the same way.

Hand 3:
- I would have check called the river.