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  #1  
Old 12-28-2005, 03:50 PM
jrforman jrforman is offline
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Default 5/5 NL...Doing Business????

5/5 NL live home game
The game is fantastic. A lot of passive calling stations and players who are willing to go broke with TPTK or even less. This is the first time I am playing in the game and I noticed when two of the players were all-in, the vast majority of the time they conducted business. I have never conducted business before and generally dont like to. Anyways, I ended up getting it all-in with another player (nice guy, decent player) on a 2 5 6 board when I had a set of deuces. He had pocket 8s and asked if I wanted to do business. At the time I was stuck like 450 and running really cold before the hand. What would you guys have done in this sitiation?
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  #2  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:28 PM
BobboFitos BobboFitos is offline
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Default Re: 5/5 NL...Doing Business????

Sure, why not. tell him you have a 9:1 edge, he gets 1/10th the pot, hand over.
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  #3  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:32 PM
TheWorstPlayer TheWorstPlayer is offline
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Default Re: 5/5 NL...Doing Business????

Doing business usually means running it twice and not splitting is by EV. But I certainly do business. Who cares if you're stuck? If the fish want to do business, I want to do business. It doesn't affect your EV, so you should be basically indifferent between yes and no.
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Old 12-28-2005, 04:36 PM
BobboFitos BobboFitos is offline
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Default Re: 5/5 NL...Doing Business????

[ QUOTE ]
Doing business usually means running it twice and not splitting is by EV. But I certainly do business. Who cares if you're stuck? If the fish want to do business, I want to do business. It doesn't affect your EV, so you should be basically indifferent between yes and no.

[/ QUOTE ]

occaisonally 'doing business' can be even 3, 4, 5, etc... times. !!!

Esp. in a homegame, I imagine, they certainly can just chop pot according to pot equity. if that is the case,Im happy winning 90% of the pot, as that = 0 variance.
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  #5  
Old 12-28-2005, 04:41 PM
TheWorstPlayer TheWorstPlayer is offline
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Default Re: 5/5 NL...Doing Business????

Yes, I agree with your post just thought that he meant running it twice (or three times - never seen more than that). Very rare they will split by equity, I think.
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  #6  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:01 PM
AdamBragar AdamBragar is offline
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Default Re: 5/5 NL...Doing Business????

In a casino, I'm not doing business here. At a home game, especially as a first time visitor, I'm doing whatever the other guy wants.
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  #7  
Old 12-28-2005, 05:27 PM
ansky451 ansky451 is offline
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Default Re: 5/5 NL...Doing Business????

Doing business is neutral EV. It merely decreases variance. In this spot when you have such a huge edge I wouldn't do business. But if he sucked out I would just kill him and take his money anyway.
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  #8  
Old 12-28-2005, 06:02 PM
lapoker17 lapoker17 is offline
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Default Re: 5/5 NL...Doing Business????

do it sometimes, don't do it others. just don't become known as the guy who always runs it twice.
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  #9  
Old 12-28-2005, 06:10 PM
TheWorstPlayer TheWorstPlayer is offline
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Default Re: 5/5 NL...Doing Business????

I know what you're saying, but this doesn't sound like a game full of guys who are going to be taking shots at you because you run it twice. It sounds like a nice soft home game where everyone runs everything twice. So he should just always run it twice here.
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  #10  
Old 12-28-2005, 07:51 PM
cbloom cbloom is offline
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Default Re: 5/5 NL...Doing Business????

(I wrote this a while ago, HTML)

In cash games it's common to "run it twice". What this means is when the players are all-in before the river, they will
draw the remaining cards twice. If one player wins both times, he scoops the pot. If each player wins once, the pot is
split. The funny thing about how this is usually done is that the drawn cards are not shuffled back into the deck, you
simply draw once, leave those cards in the muck, then draw again.

<P>

This is very bad for the EV of someone with few outs. Consider the case that you only have one out - you can only possibly
win once, because if you win one you have no more cards to hit for the other draw! Let's look at the math in one specific
case, Hold'em, with two players cards up, and just one more card to come, so 8 cards are known and 44 remain unknown. After
one draw there are 43 unknown. The player who's behind has N outs.

<P>

If you just draw once, your EV in units of pots is N/44

<P>

If you draw twice you can either win both : N/44 * (N-1)/43 , or more likely you hit the first and miss the second or
miss the first and hit the second, and if those happen you get half EV :

<P>
<PRE>

1/2 * (N/44 * (1 - (N-1)/43)+ (1 - N/44) * (N-1)/43)

=
[ N * (N-1) + 1/2 * (N * (43 - (N-1))+ (44 - N) * (N-1)) ] / (44*43)

=
[ N * (N-1) + 1/2 * (N * 43 - 2N*(N-1) + 44 * N - 44) ] / (44*43)

=
[ 1/2 * (N * 87 - 44) ] / (44*43)
=
[ N * 87/2 - 22 ] / (44*43)

=
N/44 * 87/86 - 22 * (44*43)

=
(N/44) * 87/86 - 1/86

</PRE>

Well, this is always less than the EV of just drawing once. The difference is ((N/44) - 1)/86. If you somehow had > 44 outs
it would be +EV to draw twice (silly), and the less outs you have the worse it is. In the extreme case of having only 1 out,
you lose 1.1% of the pot in EV by drawing twice !!

<P>

So, the moral of the story is : if you ever get in a big cash pot and someone offers to draw twice - you should refuse
if you're drawing and accept if you have the better made hand. (note that the player drawing may actually be "ahead" in
the sense that if they have more than 22 outs they are favored to win, but it's still a bad move for them to accept the
double run - drawing players should only run once). People often justify running it twice as a way to reduce variance.
It sure is, but if you're playing hold'em your variance is already huge and you should just worry about EV.
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