Different styles for BB defens

[Festis]

I learned shorthanded here on this forum. And here I did learn to call in the BB and then nearly allways cheackraise if I hit something. But today i rereaded Holdem for advance players. And they sugest to bet out and cheackraise the turn as a standard play.
Is there a big different between the opponents that the book thinks about and the online players? Or why have this forum choosen another standardplay?

[kiddo]

Which page in HEFAP are u talking about?

[Festis]

I'm at work now so I don't know the exact page. But it is in the shorthanded section. That section aint very big so it should not be so hard to find.

[Festis]

ok, I'm off work now. The page is 199, "Leading on the Flop".

[Festis]

A correction to my first post. HFAP's standard line is to just bet out against the preflop raieser. I was off about the turn cheackraise, really sorry about that.

[naphand]

I found myself thinking exactly this last night when considering my standard flop play in this spot, and came to the conclusion that the flop CR was questionable depending on the circumstances.

For example, if you are defending a raise in the BB with a hand like 97s and the flop comes 762, or similar. A CR will get 2 bets in against raisors "overcards"; in many cases where the flop comes ragged we will be against overcards (be they AQ, KT etc.). But when we check and get the bet, opponent will have correct odds to draw to his overcards on the Turn. Our CR may get extra money in the pot, but it does not force our opponent to make a mistake. Of course it can be argued that his flop bet was a mistake, but this is SOP after a PFR as a way to pick up the pot when the defender misses (which is about 66% of the time). The pre-flop aggressors play (betting the flop) is correct in a general sense, and his call of our CR is also correct with any two overcards.

When we bet the Turn the pot is 5.25 BB (assuming it was HU with the PFR and ourselves in the BB) opponent would be incorrect to draw with just his overcards (6.67:1), although it could be argued that with at least 1 more bet guaranteed on the River opponent is only making a small mistake by calling here. However, the flop CR makes life a lot easier for opponent on the flop, and if one other player also calls the PFR (for arguments sake, we say they fold the flop) putting 1 extra BB in the pot, then his Turn call is close enough to be justified. It is very close.

So why CR the flop? Betting out would make the opponent incorrect to call the flop bet on overcards, and again on the Turn.

As for betting the flop and CR the Turn, this is only going to work if, specifically, opponent will either

(i) Raise our flop bet AND bet the Turn (but the flop raise is to buy a free card...)
or
(ii) Opponent is sufficiently aggressive to bet the Turn when checked to.

So, in short, we need an opponent who is aggressive enough to bet the Turn with just overcards or a draw, and particularly after being bet into on the flop.

As the standard play for a PFR is to bet the flop, and to raise the flop for a Turn free card, I do not see many opportunities to both bet out on the flop AND gat a CR in on the Turn against PFR holding overs against our weak pair.

The situation may vary of course, we might pick up 2-pair or 2nd-pair (on a raggy board we can treat this the same as TP) or we may have a draw. CR the flop gets more money in but makes playing the rest of the hand easier for the pre-flop aggressor, he can certainly take one more off with overs (and correctly so).

When we pick up a pair, it seems to me we force the opponents holding overs to make mistakes on the flop and Turn by just betting out. The CR does not do this, both because the standard play of betting the flop after a PFR is (generally) correct AND because the CR gives overs correct odds to draw and therefore call.

A strategy that is more likely to work is check-calling the flop and CR the Turn. If opponent bets the flop and bets the Turn as standard then a flop check-call and Turn CR looks a better play, as we now force our opponent to call incorrectly on the Turn, a more expensive mistake (although this too is very close, see below). We need the Turn to be favourable of course but, as already stated, a flop CR is correctly called by the pre-flop aggressor so he is going to see the Turn at least, we cannot stop this (and our CR gives him the correct price to draw). I think we will see a lot more players betting the flop and Turn as standard (to prevent free cards) than calling a flop bet and then betting the Turn.

This requires some pretty good reads in order to be successful and the bet-bet line would appear to be more correct than CR-bet, even check-call-CR (folding to a 3-bet) gives opponent 6:1 on the Turn (HU from flop) with odds of 6.67:1. By playing bet-bet opponent is not getting correct odds to call on either street.

This issue of strategy when defending the blinds after the flop is highly dependent on pot size. In a typically small pot HU on the flop, the bet-bet line appears to be best and has the added benefit of being guaranteed to succeed (a CR can go wrong, of course).

Anyone care to discuss?

[Wynton]

My standard play, when defending the bb from an apparent steal and connecting in some way on the flop, is to bet out. I like to bet out regardless of whether I have a draw, top pair, second pair.

My attitude is that the really tight players may lay down their overcards, which is fine. The real aggressive players with overcards may raise, giving me chance to 3-bet. Other people may call but then fold to the turn bet, if they've picked up nothing. And by betting out all the time, my play is deceptive.

On the other hand, I must say that I've started to rethink this whole approach. It can't be right for me to check/raise the flop as little as I do presently.

As for the discussion about forcing your opponent to make a mistake is interesting, I think that's interesting but not dispositive. Seems to me that a bet may be correct at times even if your opponent is then given the odds to call.

[naphand]

Standard HFAP and TOP stuff really. A bet is always better than a free card when you are ahead, even when they are correct to call. Standard plays are fine, but the "standard" often does not differ much EV-wise from another "non-standard" play and will cetainly change quite significantly during a game according to your image and who you are playing etc.

Think on this. What will be the effect of CR the flop against an opponent who has only seen you bet out thus far? Will he be more likely to call you down, or more likely to fold? Your take on his reaction should be one of the determining factors in deciding how to play a given hand.

Obviously standard lines work, but sooner or later as we develop as players and move on to play better quality games, the standard line is not going to be enough. Developing additional moves (and they do not have to be "Fancy Play Syndrome") that you can use to specifically control or confuse an opponent, and understanding how they affect the play of a hand, is completely necessary if we are to becomes better, skilful players.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
In a typically small pot HU on the flop, the bet-bet line appears to be best

[/ QUOTE ]

Small pot play is all about extracting the most when ahead, and failing to take advantage of the tendency to always follow a PFR with a bet is throwing money away. Betting should only really be used against aggressive, stubborn opponents who will nearly always raise a flop bet. Checking is SOP.

[cartman]

In my experience defenders lead into PFRs with a wide variety of hands including absolute nothing. If I have raised preflop with AT for instance and the board comes 7 high, I almost always raise if I am led into HU. I take it much more seriously when I am CRd, usually folding UI on the turn. Against me I think my opponents best line would probably be to lead out and then 3-bet my raise with any pair on an all low board (although he will bleed sometimes because I steal enough that I may have a piece of any board). Granted he will give me the correct odds to draw on the turn, it is well worth the extra money he gets out of me on the flop. Imagine for example that he has a pair on a 7 high flop and I turn my cards face up and show him that I have AK and explain to him that he better keep it cheap or else I'll have the odds to draw on the turn. He should bet $1000 if I will let him! You also learn virtually nothing about his hand if you lead out and get raised on the flop. Getting 3-bet when you CR him is a little more indicative of an actual hand IMO. Just my .02. The topic is definitely worth thinking further about.

Cartman