I just lost $400 on this hand - and I deserved to lose!

GrunchCan · #1 07-10-2005, 02:56 AM

I had a revelation tonight.

My online limit results have been very good and escalating ever since I found 2+2. But when I play live, I lose! It's goten to the point where its no longer variance or sample size. There is something wrong with my live game. Tonight, I think I figured out what it is. At least, I found out what one thing is. Here we go...

I play a lot of NL tourneys on stars, and some on party skins. My results are good to very good. I think I'm a decent and improving NL tourney player.

I played live NL for the first time tonight in a casino - the Trump in Gary, IN. I played the 'baby' NL table: 2/5 blinds, 200 max buyin. I came in from a must move table with 175, and proceeded to get blinded away while I waited for cards.

After a 200 rebuy and a few decent pots, I have a stack of about 400, maybe a hair over. I'm back to even.

I'm dealt A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the CO. There is a limp from an EP, a MP and a LP player. I raise to 20. The MP and LP call. The pot is now 80, I think.

The flop comes A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Actually, I don't remember the heart cards, but I know they were rag hearts, and the flop looked pretty good for me other than the flush draw.

The MP player bets 60. I put him squarely on Ax, where x is < J, since he would have raised PF with AJ+. If he has a set, we're about to find out. The LP calls the 60. The pot now stands at 180, IIRC. I'm pretty confident that LP is on a draw. Otherwise, he would have rasied or folded at this point. There has been zero slowplaying tonight.

Ok, so let's stop the action here. What's hero's move?

I'll come back later and tell you what I did, why I think it was wrong, and what my revelation was.

Oh, here's some more info. Both opponents are good, not donks. Better than me, I think. MP might have me covered, but only by a little. LP has me covered by a lot. My image is tight I think.

imported_anacardo · #2 07-10-2005, 03:08 AM

I'd pot-raise the flop, check the turn, and call/ half-pot a non-heart turn or river. What did YOU do?

overtly spruce · #3 07-10-2005, 03:21 AM

Im going to assume that since you are third to act and you would really like to find out whether or not that set is out there, or if you were against a draw that you came over the top, got called by one opponent and then lost to the draw... IMO

swolfe · #4 07-10-2005, 12:29 PM

any raise here really pot commits you. a pot raise would be over half your stack, so if you're gong to raise, then you should probably just push.

with the bet and cold-call, i'd probably be pretty willing to dump this one.

EDIT: also, this blind structure sucks. 40BB is gamble it up time...

GrunchCan · #5 07-10-2005, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd pot-raise the flop, check the turn, and call/ half-pot a non-heart turn or river. What did YOU do?

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Well, my plan was to do the same. Pot-size the flop, half-pot the turn, half-pot the river. Be careful of hearts.

What I actually did was flip 5 green chips out and make the flop 125 to go. MP tanked for a long time, staring me down. He asked me "Ace no good?" I just sat there, staring at the felt. After about 2 minutes, he finally folded. LP called quick. The river came non-[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] rag, and I moved in for about 225. LP tanked for a minute or so, finally called. I knew what he wanted to see.

The 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] came on the river. Of course LP made a j-high [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] flush, and I was bust.

I lost this hand becuse I made a mistake -- I offered LP correct odds to draw to the flush on every postflop street. But my intent was correct: make a pot-sized bet on the flop, which would have probably won the pot. At the very least it would have offered LP bad odds to draw.

So my revelation is this: I suck at tracking the size of the pot in live games. I'm probably just too lazy. Makes total sense why I have such good results online but bad results live. Online, I know the exact size of the pot and all the stacks at all times. Live, I need to rely on my brain in addition to my eyeballs.

So this is what I need to work on now. Any advice? I'm thinking a lot of little home games before my next trip to the NL tgable at Trump.

GrunchCan · #6 07-10-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
with the bet and cold-call, i'd probably be pretty willing to dump this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would have chucked it, really? That option never even crossed my mind. I was quite certian that I had the equity edge in this hand. How read dependant is your willingness to fold? There's no range of cards these opponents could have come in with that include a 2-pair on this board, and the only real set possibility was the 7. But if MP had a set, he would have CRed me. If LP had a set, he would have raised MP. I figured the chance that either player had a set was < 5%

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: also, this blind structure sucks. 40BB is gamble it up time...

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but there's nothing I can do about it. That's all that is available to me here in Chicago. There is a big NL table at the trump, but I can't afford it. Min buyin is 1000, and the dealers say that most people buyin for over 10k.

soah · #7 07-10-2005, 01:21 PM

Umm, you put all of your money in the pot. What other line did you think you could take which would force the guy to lay down his draw?

Marlow · #8 07-10-2005, 02:21 PM

I haven't read any other posts, but here goes. If they are BOTH truly better than you, it's very difficult to say what you should do because I have no idea what they EXPECT you to do... nor do you. Chances are, they expect you to do what you did...

Anyway, based on your read of the tenor of the table and your two opponents, you are in a very unenviable position. Your post makes it sound like you lost a bundle, so I'd wager that you pushed. And that's maybe what I'd do. Push or fold. I just can't call here because the pot's too big and your hand's not likely to get better, but sounds like it could be good now. Folding sounds wimpy, but I'm sure there will be better spots.

Tough one. Looking forward to the results.

Marlow
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

yellowjack · #9 07-10-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So my revelation is this: I suck at tracking the size of the pot in live games. I'm probably just too lazy. Makes total sense why I have such good results online but bad results live. Online, I know the exact size of the pot and all the stacks at all times. Live, I need to rely on my brain in addition to my eyeballs.

So this is what I need to work on now. Any advice? I'm thinking a lot of little home games before my next trip to the NL tgable at Trump.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way I do it is by remembering what happened on the previous street. How much did you raise and how many calls? Take that sum and add a few bucks for the blinds and limpers and you got it. Think about how big the pot is at the start of every street so you can keep track.

I find using your eyes to get an estimate can be very decieving, which is why I don't do it.

You got the way to play this hand down pat, but I don't like the amount you raised preflop. With 3 limps and the blinds still to act, I'd make it $30-$40.

GrunchCan · #10 07-10-2005, 03:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the amount you raised preflop. With 3 limps and the blinds still to act, I'd make it $30-$40.

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Is this becasue you're trying to limit the field as much as possible? If so, my 4x raises have been effective at getting the blinds to fold. I felt that a raise to 6x or 8x would have looked suspicious, and encouraged a call or a bluff-play back.