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View Poll Results: Do you use GT+ or PV when you play NL cash games?
No, and I mostly play 2/4 NL and smaller. 30 31.58%
No, and I mostly play 3/6 NL and higher. 15 15.79%
Yes, and I mostly play 2/4 NL and smaller. 33 34.74%
Yes, and I mostly play 3/6 NL and higher. 17 17.89%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

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  #21  
Old 09-11-2005, 01:09 AM
Dave D Dave D is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical question that will blow your mind.

Wow, OP directed me to this thread, and while I respect everyone here, the answer to me is the exact opposite of everyone else.

I'm assuming that everyone's talking about MTTs.

For me, knowing everyone else's cards is something that a more skilled player wouldnt *need* to know b/c he's a more skilled player. A more skilled player is by definition better at making reads, identifying tells and tendancies of various players. But what's the one thing he has NO clue about? The next cards. Thus, I would want to suppliment info I already knew (like that player is an idiot, he could play any two here, or that player is tight and respectable) with info I didn't have any clue about, like what cards are coming next.

Think about all the times you fold a PP to a raise, only to see you would have flopped a set. Think about all the monotone flops where you flop a set. Imagine if you knew you'd boat up on the river, you could probably get the nut flush to push 80% of the time. Or for that matter, anyone who flopped a flush.

For me, what matters is my newfound ability to lay horrendous beats on people. I know I'm making a set, and I know that's good basically 100% of the time, I don't really care about someone else's cards. But I can use my normal player reading ability to put them on a hand.

Now, think about MTT final tables, or even final 30 player situations. How often do you find yourself in the situation of "I'm pushing this AQ here regardless of what everyone else's action is " and how often do you find yourself in the situation of "I'm calling this shorty's push with any two". I think it happens a lot on online MTTs, post flop play starts to matter a lot less (until it gets down to say the final 4), and these things become push fests. Now, if I KNEW that this 37 would turn into two pair, you bet I'm pushing it to me unless there's like 4 pushes to me or something rediculous. This is key for later on, taking full advantage of every hand you get.
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  #22  
Old 09-11-2005, 03:00 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical question that will blow your mind.

I'm not saying this view is right. It's just an alternative for your consideration:

Though I agree that the argument for knowing the other player's cards is compelling, I'm not sure that knowing the other player's cards is as great an advantage as many people make it out to be.

All our conventional wisdom is based on a specific balance of unknowns. Any significant change throws mot of it out the window. If you know the board, you don't have pot odds, you either have a huge made hand or you don't -- and you know what your "blind" opponents can reasonably play at any point.

If you know the board, your advantage is "real". Every hand you play will be a probable winner over the *entire* table preflop. If you know your opponent's cards, your advantage is merely statistical.

You've actually probably "played" the opposite variant: every time you watch a poker show with a table cam, you see all the hands. How often does the board surprise you and turn the advantage entirely around -- especially the flop? Too often for you to fully press your statistical advantage. especially since your opponent doesn't "know" he's dominated (or that you "know") and will continue to hit those lucky cards. On the flip side, you'd fold many winning hands because they would appear dominated preflop.

If you --and only you-- know the board, then many seemingly unplayable hands would suddenly become goldmines. You'd be playing for guaranteed high sets, flushes, straights and full houses -- maybe top two pair if you're in the mood to gambool. Though you WILL get accused of cheating (because you are) you'll never have much difficulty finding opponents who will happily re-re-reraise to all-in with AA on an AK3 flop, because their minds simply can't accept that you'd play 46u and the board would finish AK325.

Would it be boring? Using an ATM IS boring. Excitement comes from the risk. Who needs it? Besides, you'd be deliberately losing a lot of hands (inexpensively of course), always discarding face up, until good players are BEGGING you and your occassional "luck" to come to their tables. The meta-game of luring in bets and acting the fish could be enough to maintain your interest.

If you play Omaha, where straights and flushes are common, you know that most 5-card boards have a far higher potential that only a fool would chase in TXHE. You wouldn't be chasing. You'd OWN most of the straights and flushes that no one else dares chase, while they are grinding for two pair.

I'll put it another way:
Imagine you are colluding with a crooked dealer. Which would win you more money, faster: dealing key cards onto the board or into your opponent's hands so they're unknowingly dominated? Now replace the crooked dealer, with foreknowledge of the random deals, which sometimes do the same thing.

Here's another consideration:
Lets say you are playing against a table FULL of fellow clairvoyants. Do you want to play against ones who know the actual final value of their hands (but not yours) or would you rather play against ones who only know your hand?

Heck, we ALWAYS know our own hand, and experience, every deal, how much uncertainly awaits us on the board.
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  #23  
Old 09-11-2005, 03:01 PM
smokingrobot smokingrobot is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical question that will blow your mind.

i vote the ability to whoop ass on an indefinite # of 5 yr olds.
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  #24  
Old 09-11-2005, 03:11 PM
Orpheus Orpheus is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical question that will blow your mind.

I just thought of another difference to consider:

if you know the board, you become well-nigh unreadable. No one can ever put you on a specific hand. YOU might be playing the 46u that would happen to make a nut straight (no one else would!) or you might be doing one of your fishy fool hands (which they don't know are an act) or you might be bored ang gambooling with a bluf (really: you have a significant advantage, but not a lock, so they'll sometimes see you lose these hands)

If you know your opponents' hands, you simply have a perfect read on the other hands, which only complicates the ability of the other players to read your range of hands modestly.

Again, just tossing ideas into the mix.
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  #25  
Old 09-11-2005, 06:19 PM
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Default Re: Hypothetical question that will blow your mind.

My two cents: If you play like you know other players hands, you're going to trigger collusion detection systems. People are going to be less likely to detect "board foresight" because it's simply a much less likely form of cheating.
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  #26  
Old 09-12-2005, 03:17 AM
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Default Re: Hypothetical question that will blow your mind.

[ QUOTE ]
this answer becomes amazingly clear when you know what the fundamental theorem of poker is

[/ QUOTE ]
Thinking the exact same thing
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  #27  
Old 09-12-2005, 11:02 AM
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Default Re: Hypothetical question that will blow your mind.

i don't understand. maybe i didn't read closely enough.

but you are going to see the community cards before the end. but won't see the opponent cards..

but to answer question, i think it should be obvious you'd rather see the 5 community cards pre-flop... usually have to hit something to win. and against good players, tons fold anyway so no huge advantage to seeing their cards.

i think people in voting are subconsciously thinking - well, i'll see the community cards soon anyhow.
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  #28  
Old 09-12-2005, 11:58 AM
SocialWelfareIV SocialWelfareIV is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical question that will blow your mind.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
this answer becomes amazingly clear when you know what the fundamental theorem of poker is

[/ QUOTE ]
Thinking the exact same thing

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to mention the edge that you'd gain in calculating odds because you can account for 18 additional cards.
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  #29  
Old 09-12-2005, 12:56 PM
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Default Re: Hypothetical question that will blow your mind.

NL game = final board
limit game = everyone's hand PF.
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  #30  
Old 09-12-2005, 01:38 PM
mudbuddha mudbuddha is offline
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Default Re: Hypothetical question that will blow your mind.

I'd have to disagree with you on that one. NL, your opponents cards are way more important the board. Hell, if you could see your opponents cards you could play blind. It would help to know your own cards of course. But if you only saw the board, you could not exploit every edge that you have.. suppose you have AK and you know the board is A2J2T are you going to fold preflop, just bc its a scary board on the river??
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